Saturday, November 01, 2008

More on Prop 8 and Hitler

Lest anyone think my mention of Nazi Germany in my California Prop 8 post was over the top, I have officially been outdone by this alleged spokesperson said in his breathless support of Prop 8:

The link to the video is here. These people are desperate.


  1. Well, at least they're being openly honest now that this isn't actually about what's right or "moral" but about religious/irreligious persecution.

    I don't know how it got to the point where this is the kind of thing that can be voted on. What next, outlaw gay mortgages?

  2. I once earned the respect of a lesbian in my political science class when we were talking about the Missouri constitution and when asked about it I said that the latest amendment (banning gay marriage) was stupid and hateful. She asked me if I was gay (no) or if I knew anyone who was gay (no). I told her I did it because it was the right thing to do and someone had to stand up against the bigotry.

    This is what keeps me fighting for gay rights. If history has shown me anything, the bigots will ultimately lose and be pushed back to the fringes where they belong, but the road to that day is long and mostly uphill.

  3. I challenged an LDS blogger to show me real evidence of harm to children, not the studies comparing non-divorced hetero families to single parent families, and instead they started deleting all my posts. I got so mad I turned around and donated to the No on 8 Campaign. Besides that I console myself that no one really seems to be reading them (or at least, they're not commenting). I'll be relieved when we've got this election in the can, assuming we're not seeing any sort of Bradley effect on the gay marriage poll.

  4. The right wing republican-base religious crowd is driven by hate and fear. Their entire movement is morally and intellectually bankrupt. It really bothers me when I talk to people who call themselves republicans anymore, or say they support McCain.

    How much more out in the open must their hateful ideological foundation be for everyone to see it for what it is? I can only hope they become more and more politically marginalized. An Obama win would be a significant step in that direction I believe. Here's hoping for a good outcome on Tuesday.. on both the Obama AND Prop 8 fronts.

  5. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  6. Greta Christina has a good post about Prop 8. The gist of it is that its proponents claim that gay marriage is immoral, so they've engaged in lies, blackmail, and possibly cybercrime to make it illegal.

  7. I suspect that dm is a sockpuppet for davidmabus, it is an ancient troll who has been defeated numerous times on several forums.

  8. Zurahn: I understand your shock. But the truth is that legislation can be passed to support any hosed up agenda. The "check" on it is the point where someone sues the city/state over it. Then the judiciary gets to say whether or not the law is legal. I can't imagine this would hold up in SCOTUS as "legal." So, on the one hand, it might be good to have laws like this. Once SCOTUS rules, other states would be less likely to even try to pass this sort of thing, because they know it will involve them in costly legal battles which they then know they will lose.

    Atheistundermask: I couldn't agree more. I have a friend who is personally homophobic--but who would never pass a law to stop gays from doing anything. Similar to the racially prejudiced people who weren't opposed to segregation, but who would have been none too happy to see their son/daughter marry one of "those people," he won't actually support gays in what they're doing. He just remains neutral in his actions. But in my view, that inaction falls on the side of evil when we're talking about a very small group that cannot defend itself without more public support. Yes, the courts will support their cause; but what they really need is more public support from their fellow citizens who are willing to lend such support merely because they will not tolerate one group being treated like second-class citizens in a country where we are all supposed to be treated with equality in government and in the law.

    Robert: I generally argue that hate IS fear--taken to an extreme. It's like a cornered animal that goes for your throat. What's sad is that this is a group that has been mentally manipulated into paranoia over nothing. So, they have been made fearful, then whipped up into a frenzy of hate--over a thing they perceive as threatening them that actually is no threat at all. It's like being hatefully phobic of kittens. But it's like that old saying that if I can get you to believe absurdities, I can get you to commit atrocities. Too true. And it makes me feel like I'm living in a surreal world to know that what drives these people is that they are like this because they believe in a form of "morality" that was espoused by Middle Eastern goatherds several thousand years ago--and that they're backed by an invisible superbeing who just happens to endorse that particular brand of morality. And it is a code that, if any sane person were to read those laws, their hair would stand on end. Cold reading the Old Testament may be interesting to some, but I think if we try to actually put ourselves in the shoes of having to live it, we begin to see it's quite Taliban-esque. Which isn't suprising, since it comes from the same area of the globe.

    [with regard to] DM: I thought moderation was "on" on this blog? Was it switched off? This is nt only off-topic, but is also spam which needs to be deleted. Mr. Mabus has been spamming e-mail lists for a very long time now, but this is the first time I've seen him actually spam the blog. I guess he's getting more aggressive the more his tantrums are ignored--what was Robert saying about hate/fear? One thing I've noticed is that, left unchecked, it tends to escalate.

    My own comments on this video would be about the apparently blind hypocrisy and irony--as they invoke the idea of "being against Hitler"--who was ALSO against rights for gays. So, they're supporting an agenda Hitler to which Hitler would have immediately also lent his support--because it was part of his ideology--and they don't see that as problematic while they talk about how being against this Prop is like being against Hitler.

    It's like something from The Onion. If I didn't know it was real--I'd be hard pressed to believe any group could be so ignorant of history or so blind to their own stupidity in invoking this particular model as their analogy.

  9. @ dm said...

    Whoa. Can I invoke Poe's law here?

  10. tracieh, Harry Turtledove had General Custer say a line about that in one of his books.

    I don't remember it fully, and I don't have the book in front of me (6 books have Custer in it, each about 600 pages) but it went something like this:

    The moderates are worse than the fanatics because the moderates allow the fanatics to happen.

  11. "Whoa. Can I invoke Poe's law here?" -maddogdelta

    In this case, I prefer Reductio ad Hitlerum. Poe's law makes no judgement on the validity of the comparison, while RaH takes the form of a logical fallacy.

  12. I have removed David Mabus's comment. Yes, he appears to be off his meds or whatever he does, and is back to his latest round of comment spamming.

    I have had moderation activated before, but unless we get a serious pain in the ass troll I prefer to leave it off, as logging in several times a day to moderate the queue can be a real hassle and distraction from a day's work. The occasional OT idiot post such as dm's can be dealt with on its own.

  13. @martin
    I have removed David Mabus's comment.

    That comment needs to go into a special display. I would recommend making one, but there already is something like that at

    Highly entertaining reading.

  14. Martin: I understand. I was just surprised because I didn't realize moderation was off again.

    Atheistundermask: That's very much Sam Harris' promoted perspective as well. I think that is central to his worldview--at least based on what he writes.

  15. Wow, invoking Hitler while promoting a ban on gay marriage. Hitler, the one who banned any marriages between those of Aryan and other races and imprisoned homosexuals. Shouldn't they be saying, "He had the right idea, just went a bit overboard," instead of equating themselves with Hitler's victims?


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