Friday, August 17, 2007

Proof that we are not a Christian nation

Ladies and gentlemen, may I please direct your attention to the public attention that Pastor Wiley Drake has received for his call to imprecatory prayer against Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

Pastor Drake has urged his followers to call down the wrath of God on the AU leadership, as modeled in such Bible passages as Psalms 109, 55, 58, 68, 69, and 83. Let's take a quick look at a few passages from these chapters:
"Let his days be few; and let another take his office."
"Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell."
" Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD."

Now let's consider a thought experiment. Suppose that prayer really worked. If Pastor Drake's call to mass prayer were effective, then presumably within a short time, Reverend Barry Lynn and his supporters would be dead, their teeth broken, their children vagabonds, etc., etc. And all as a direct result of a specific action taken by this clown.

What we have here is premeditation with an intent to aid in violence and/or murder. Drake doesn't intend to get his hands dirty by killing Barry Lynn himself, but he is invoking a prayer which he believes will indirectly lead to Lynn's death. Well, that's not cool in US law, and if people did believe in prayer, I imagine some of them would want Drake tried and locked up immediately.

But prayer doesn't work. And everybody knows that damn well. Drake's followers might be incited to commit violence against Barry Lynn -- we sure hope not -- but God never will. His prayer means nothing.

And so the justice system doesn't need to give this a second thought, because Drake's words are just covered as freedom of speech. They don't have a prayer of actually achieving any physical results.

Although, of course, I'm sure that he'll be only too happy to accept credit if Lynn should happen to meet with some kind of accident or illness at any time for the rest of his natural life.


  1. We need to make a list of "Things that illustrate that even Xians don't believe their own doctrine."

    Let's see:

    1. Abortion is premeditated murder and needs to be illegal; but it's ridiculous to impose the death penalty on perpetrators.

    2. Christians go to doctors/hospitals. If they believe "god's will be done"--they should pray that and be content with the outcome; OR if they believe in intercessory prayer--use that. Instead, they pray AND go to the doctor--then credit god if the person lives, call it god's will if the person dies, or say it was just an unfortunate event that god wasn't involved in (if it's too horrible--like an infant's death).

    3. All our Christian citizens and representatives (many of whom claim Xianity/theism) won't pass laws against using prayer to injure or kill people. Why isn't it "deadly force" or assault with a deadly weapon" or some other such mode of harm/murder? That's a good question, K.

    Anybody know any more? I say let's go for a Top 10 List...?

  2. I think tracieh has a great point. Seems like many self-professed Christians don't believe what they claim to believe.

  3. It reminds me of the bumper sticker that reads:

    Test your faith, drive with your eyes closed.

  4. Anyone familiar with the theory and practice of magick recognizes that this is Black Magick pure and simple. (I am continuing Kazim's thought experiment here -- let us assume that Prayer Works, that Magick Is Real, and all that other stuff.) And isn't Black Magick one of the Hallmarks Of A Satanist, according to the fundies? Why is performing Black Magick in the name of God, or (supposedly) at the orders of God Hisownself, a good thing?

    It does not matter, in this case, whether one believes or not that this stuff is Real or Really Works. Intent is all. (Even the Bible says that). One is invoking supernatural aid or directing supernatural forces to bring about or otherwise cause harm, even deadly harm, to another human being. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these same sorts of Religious Zealots used to burn people at the stake for that.

    It infuriates me that they cannot even see their own hypocrisy. Is it because it is so very blatant?

  5. 2. Christians go to doctors/hospitals. If they believe "god's will be done"--they should pray that and be content with the outcome; OR if they believe in intercessory prayer--use that. Instead, they pray AND go to the doctor--then credit god if the person lives, call it god's will if the person dies, or say it was just an unfortunate event that god wasn't involved in (if it's too horrible--like an infant's death).

    First, let me say that I am adamantly not Christian, but the rest of my family is. Thankfully they're not the stereotypical ignorant, ridiculously conservative, foaming-at-the-mouth evangelicals that form the biggest boil on the butt of this nation. They're fairly moderate and reasonably intelligent, just misled.

    Their response to the above point about going to doctors and hospitals would go something like this: "God didn't create us to live a life of complete helplessness. He created herbs and other medicines for our use, to benefit and prolong our lives, and he gave us the gift of medical knowledge and skill. Doctors and medicine are God's tools in helping us live longer."

    I see where you're going with this, and I agree that there are plenty of contradictions in the Bible and plenty more in the way many Christians live their lives. But to be effective, you'll have to dig deeper. Read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, there's a plethora of good information inside.

  6. Bethany, that wasn't the point of the original poster (tracieh). The point is Christians make those grandiose claims about how they trust God completely or how they believe in prayer, but at the end of the day, when their health is at stake, they do like the rest of us - they run in the hands of science.

    They will s**t on science and materialism every occasion they get, but ultimately, they _know_ that their beliefs are just that - beliefs.

  7. Robert has read me right.

    Additionally, the Bible does contradict itself in the matter of healing:

    Matthew 9:12: "...They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick."


    James 5:24: "Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord."

    Pray or call a doctor? According to the NT--which the Xians are so fond of pointing out they feel usurps the OT...a doctor is not the right choice.

    Additionally, the stories in the Bible claim Jesus healed people who had found no help with physicians:

    Luke 8:43-44: And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
    came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.

    If my life hangs in the balance and my choice for healing is:

    1. Almighty Lord of the Universe with unlimited power who loves people and will always do the right thing.


    2. A medicinal herb.

    Which would I choose to heal me if I believed in both?

    If I use 2--even if I also invoke 1--that isn't saying much for my faith in #1--is it?

    Further, again, if I claim that I trust that god loves me and will always do the right thing--then using the herb shows a lack of real trust in that belief as well. Maybe god wants me sick or dead--but I need to use this herb, since I don't want to be sick or dead--because this medicinal herb can subvert the all-powerful god's will...? (The same god I supposedly trust to always do the right thing by me...?)

    It makes no sense.

    Yes, I know Xians say god gives the doctor his skill--not his 8 years of medical school. But to paraphrase Kirk: "What does _god_ need with a doctor or a medical school?" [The line was originally "starship"--and I love that scene.]

    If god can heal the sick (and spew out an entire, complete, fully functioning universe simply by saying "let it be so")--and has miraculously done so before--and promises to look after all the needs of an individual Xian--why does any Xian need a doctor? Jesus made it pretty clear that you don't need to do anything--god will look after you just as he does a flower in the field. Isn't that his point in Matthew 6:25-30?

    "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?"

    I don't see how any Xian can misunderstand this. Don't sweat the physical existence--god will see to it. You have no more business worrying about your physical health/existence than a bird or a flower. And if you do concern yourself with it--you lack faith.

    There actually ARE Xians who do what the Bible says to do in this regard. But when one of their kids dies from lack of medical attention--their other kids are taken away, and all the other "Xians" call them nutballs--even though the nutballs are doing precisely what Jesus indicated they should do.

  8. Speaking of which, did you all see the New York Times Sunday magazine spread this week? It's all about how awful it is when the line of separation between church and state is blurred, and how...we're such a great country because we don't do that. What? Last I read, polls showed it absolutely impossible for an atheist to get elected to any public office at all.

  9. >and how...we're such a great country because we don't do that.

    I'm with you on this...WHAT?!

    I might be inclined to say it's great that we at least hold this up as our ideal--currently. But yes, there's a pendulum effect. And currently the thing is swinging back and knocking out a number of supports that for many decades now have been protected from religious imposition. I hope they can hold until it swings back.

    It would be nice if it could stop sometime somewhere in the middle...but, well, fat chance of that, right?


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