And to think that for a brief moment I was actually inclined to feel sorry for Dan Marvin. After all, he turns up here, offers a host of increasingly absurd and ignorant non-arguments, and is refuted every time. Rather than evaluate his arguments in the light of the refutations he's gotten, and attempt honest rebuttals, he's shown himself to be to be a pathological, self-deluded liar, projecting all of his greatest faults on all of us.
He has been answered in the comments by myself, Stephen, Tracie and others with utmost clarity and directness, yet he whines that he has been "misinterpreted, misrepresented, and misquoted," clearly not comprehending that if we're literally copying and pasting the words he's actually written while responding to him, we're in fact taking utmost care not to do any of those things. He accuses me of "deceitfulness in so called 'welcoming' me to discuss only attempt to belittle and degrade me." In Dan's world, if you invite him to your home, then you get angry because he pees on the rug, you've deceived him. Dan is completely ignoring that...
- he came to us, we never sought him out (his first comment came out of the blue in this thread)
- when I welcomed him here, I also set out a detailed list of bullet points advising him on good vs. bad arguing techniques, and making him aware of certain facts about atheists he should take into consideration before talking to us, all of which he categorically ignored
- the "belittling" he thinks he's received has been mostly due to the poor quality of the posts he's made here, all of which have consisted of logical fallacies, misunderstandings of his own precious Scripture, outright lies about science and gratuitous insults, and simple stupidity (as in his consistent failure to comprehend that he's been asked many times for a good proof of God, only to continue asserting this being's existence without support)
- that any other belittling and degradation he's gotten here has been, again, entirely his fault for shoring up his ignorance with unmerited cockiness and arrogance (such as responding to fellow Christian Chris W, who warned him that he was simply sowing more confusion and senselessness, by dismissing Chris as a "false convert")
In short, Dan has been a complete disgrace. I was going to make this second post a lengthy exegesis on correcting the scientific inaccuracies in his first battery of comments, but I no longer see the point, as anyone here who's properly educated will know what the right answers are, and Dan is incapable of learning.
So Dan can be summed up as follows. He does not how to debate. He does not understand that his views on the Bible will not be shared by everyone else. He does not accept that anyone else could know more about the Bible and Christianity than he does. He does not know how to listen to others. He does not know how to respond to being welcomed with respectful behavior. He does not know how to distinguish truths from falsehoods. He does not know how to answer direct questions, and does not seem to know even how to understand them when they are asked. He does not comprehend the concept of evidence. He does not know how to accept responsibility for his own words and deeds. He does not know how to lose graciously. He does not know how to tell the truth. He does not know how to behave like an adult.
This is a pretty comprehensive catalog of character failings. The guy is a simple fanatic, his mind locked into a religious ideology so hermetically sealed from critical inquiry that even air doesn't get in. His behavior up to now has been more than enough to get him banned from any number of other blogs. But we don't do that here. I'm happy to have him keep turning up, digging himself deeper into the quagmire he has created for himself, and dealing with the responses he gets. But in the interest of honesty, I am going to retract one statement about him that I made previously: he is a troll, or more commonly what's called a "concern troll". And the fact that all of the above will merely convince Dan all the more that he's the one being picked on, belittled, and maligned, when all he's trying to do is "love" us and look out for us, is just another sad indicator of his disconnection from reality.
Thank you, Marvin.ReplyDelete
That's the same reason I gave up on him. It was very much like Sam Harris said about playing tennis when the other guy doesn't even have a racket.
Oh well, the responses were lovely reading, anyway. Y'all some smart cookies on this here blog, by jiminy!
Go in Peace, my fellow journeyman,
Given his promise to respond with nothing more than Bible verses, I don't see any reason to welcome posts from him, but that's Martin's call.ReplyDelete
I said this earlier, when Dan did nothing but parrot Ray Comfort and other apologists while ignoring any attempt to respond to his points - Dan is *not* an original thinker.
He's put on the full 'armor of God' - which reasonable people realize is the rough equivalent of strapping on blinders and sticking your fingers in your ears.
When backed into a logical corner, Dan twists and turns like a..twisty-turny thing. (To rip off Black Adder)
I enjoy debating with people of different beliefs. I enjoy those discussions so much that they occupy a great deal of my time (some might say too much) - Dan isn't interested in discussion, he's here to preach.
I've heard enough preaching.
Given his promise to respond with nothing more than Bible verses, I don't see any reason to welcome posts from him, but that's Martin's call.ReplyDelete
Bible verse postings can be freely ignored, bereft as they are of content. Not banning is a matter of principle. I view banning as the kind of behavior you see from right-wing fundie or political blogs — the kinds of places where they have to ban you because they're just wrong in their facts and their ideology can't stand the correction. Since we don't have a fragile belief system that must be protected from facts, why ban those who insist on dropping by and helping us out by looking foolish?
Ephesians 4:31,Colossians 3:8ReplyDelete
Are you still feeling bitter, Dan?ReplyDelete
We're not angry with you, we just think you're wrong.
It is becomming increasingly apparent that your motive is not to promote Christianity for the glory of your God, but to promote your own image as a persecuted martyr. Do you really think you can fool your God into rewarding your brazenly self-promoting agenda?
My advice is this: set aside your pompous self-righteousness, repent to your God and your fellow believers, and try again. Only next time, make a more sincere commitment to what you actually believe, and make a concerted effort to glorify your God, rather than yourself. Only when you demonstrate that you care about truth as much as we do, will we begin to take you seriously enough to muster the anger and malice you so desperately seek.
This comment has been removed by the author.ReplyDelete
I will break silence for you Stephen,ReplyDelete
What doesn’t matter is the outcome of my preaching what matters is the one fact that I did preach. Even if I preach to a hateful crowd that doesn’t believe one word I say it is still my job to preach. I plant the seeds and God does the watering. I am not here to worry about conversions, I am to do my part to get all of you to understand that you are a sinner in God’s universe. We are to understand the Ten Commandments are to be used as a “Mirror” to view how we measure up to God’s acceptance and, without Jesus taking your punishment for those offences, you will do the punishment. Clear as day you can call me a liar and pot calling the kettle black all you want. You fail to realize I have sinned also and I have broken those same commandments. Do I give up on the children that are in that proverbial burning house? Nope
Spouting we’re winning, we’re winning and jumping up and down giving each other high fives and such is a joke. God’s word has proven he will not tolerate the proud. Remember the saying “When an atheist wins an argument, he loses eternity” (in heaven). You can harness all that energy and do something productive for the Lord. You have taken sides and you will pay the price. I wish one atheist would be honest enough to say “yea, I know hell will be bad for me” and admit the outcome of the position you are taking. I didn’t understand atheist’s arrogance of that position of “no God” but I clearly understand now with this group. Martin is a bitter man but I still love him enough to say “Stop, you will get burned” (because I was burned myself and I know the outcome). I have been called an a-hole and a Jesus freak and all sorts of profane things even here but that never stopped me from getting the word out. This group here is counter productive and hate filled and that is just fine with me, I understand it isn’t a pretty picture to those on the other side. I am not scared of anyone with the gun in their hand, what I fear is the Creator and what he will do to us all if we continue to sin and not trust in him. Repent and Trust. That is the only message I have been giving here. The rest (like all of you, even RD) is speculation and that was all it was. The pot and kettle are black I agree “I am a sinner” but at least you are (as a kettle) admitting you are a sinner also. Just remember after 20 years of being in the lake of fire there still will not be an end, it is forever. If pride will keep you from dropping to your knees in repentance, then God’s eternal fire will. I am here to help tell you by then it will be too late. It’s Biblical not my words.
>What doesn’t matter is the outcome of my preaching what matters is the one fact that I did preach.ReplyDelete
>I am to do my part to get all of you to understand that you are a sinner in God’s universe.
Then the outcome _does_ matter. And if you're "part" is not being done effectively, that should matter as well--since you indicate a goal above. If you have a goal, and you're not acheiving it, it is a good idea to evaluate your performance and ask "Is there a better way to go about this?" Effective people do it all the time when they don't get desired results. Doing the same thing over and over while it fails to achieve a desired result is unwise.
If the goal is conversion then "the fact that you preached" is not all you need to do. You need to preach effectively. And you're, obviously, not preaching effectively--as even a nonatheist took the time to try to point out.
Now you're blaming the crowd for your poor performance. "Angry" and "Hateful"? I think I was told I was guilty of "denial," "pride," and maybe a few other things. Just for asking if you could verify your claims. You never did--but I never name-called you or condescended. What did you refer to me as? "Dear" and "my Dear"? Why not use "Honey" or "Little Girl"? It was _clearly_ not intended as a term of endearment. You didn't call Stephen, or Alyx or Andrew, "My Dear." It was a term of condescention. And name-calling, insults, and condescention weren't necessary, since I wasn't being rude to you.
But your approach couldn't possibly have been part of the problem? You were perfectly reasonable, logical and unemotional in the comment forum?
What did I ever say to you that sounded "angry" or "hateful"? But since I don't agree that you have proved your premise, you have to villify me somehow. Otherwise, it could mean the problem is actually with you or your message. So, it's my fault--all our collective faults--that you aren't able to support your claims. It couldn't possibly be your message or presentation.
1 you will do the punishmentReplyDelete
2 children that are in that proverbial burning house
3 God’s word has proven he will not tolerate
4 “yea, I know hell will be bad for me”
5 you will pay the price.
6 “Stop, you will get burned”
7 20 years of being in the lake of fire there still will not be an end, it is forever
8 then God’s eternal fire will
“ I have been called an a-hole and a Jesus freak and all sorts of profane things”
With good reason you laughable prick. 8 threats of torture from you are disgusting to sane and civilized people. You are really quite vile.
“It’s Biblical not my words”
Your little book is rather vile also, but it is you quoting to us to serve your wounded ego, not your mute god.
“I wish one atheist would be honest enough to say “yea, I know hell will be bad for me” and admit the outcome of the position you are taking”
Thanks for the belly laugh but, I would have to lie to say this.
If pride will keep you from dropping to your knees in repentance, then God’s eternal fire will. I am here to help tell you by then it will be too late. It’s Biblical not my words.ReplyDelete
I've said it before and I'll say it again; if after a life of disbelief and good works, I die and find myself in Hell, my first words will be "fair enough." And I will feel absolutely justified in my disbelief, because any God who would condemn good people for not believing in him, any God who would allow the sort of shit that happens in his name, and then would still punish people for eternity without parole, isn't worth praising.
One of the biggest problems I have found with the chruch has been it's division over the years.ReplyDelete
How many different Christian denomations are there? who knows. Each of them have little emotional attachments to their brand of Christianity.
I could understand stylistic differences. For example, one church sings all the time during services and others do not. However, the differences like those only further divide a church.
The division of the church is not a new thing. Division has been going on ever since the dawn of Christiandom.
my battery is dieing I need to post this L8er
What doesn’t matter is the outcome of my preaching what matters is the one fact that I did preach. Even if I preach to a hateful crowd that doesn’t believe one word I say it is still my job to preach. I plant the seeds and God does the watering. I am not here to worry about conversions, I am to do my part to get all of you to understand that you are a sinner in God’s universe.ReplyDelete
Here, again, we see the insincerity of Dan's brand of evangelisim. He isn't even trying to put forward a convincing argument. He thinks his job consists of nothing more than reciting material from the Bible and WOTM--never mind that he already knows we don't consider either of those sources credible. He thinks he can plant seeds without bothering to preparing the soil, and that God will somehow magically make them germinate. He actually thinks this is how evangelism is supposed to work.
Again, he doesn't care about actually changing our minds or pursuading us of anything, he's just trying to put on a dog-and-pony show for his God. And he thinks his God won't notice how disingenuous, half-hearted and sloppy his efforts are.
Spouting we’re winning, we’re winning and jumping up and down giving each other high fives and such is a joke. God’s word has proven he will not tolerate the proud.
Dan still thinks he's "winning" his dog-and-pony show, because he's too proud to admit what a shoddy job he has been doing. If God will not tolerate the proud, he certainly will not tolerate Dan, "saved" or not. His persistent arrogance should suggest to his fellow Christians that if he ever had a "conversion", it was a false one.
Remember the saying “When an atheist wins an argument, he loses eternity” (in heaven).
Dan, that's your saying, not ours. Remember that we don't accept it because you refuse to put any effort whatsoever into backing up any of your claims about God, Heaven, or anything else in which you believe. Just keep reiterating your saying to yourself. Keep telling yourself that lie. Otherwise you might open your eyes and see the truth.
I wish one atheist would be honest enough to say “yea, I know hell will be bad for me” and admit the outcome of the position you are taking.
Didn't I effectively do something like that when I brought up Romans 9:14-23?
Still, I can't honestly say I "know" hell will be bad for me, because I don't even "know" whether or not hell exists. That's part of the soil preparation Dan will have to do before he can plant his seeds.
This group here is counter productive and hate filled and that is just fine with me, I understand it isn’t a pretty picture to those on the other side.
Here, Dan shows the depths of his dishonesty when he claims to "love" us and "care" for the fates of our souls. Our rejection of his unsupported message is just fine with him, because he revels in the thought of us writhing in agony in that not-pretty picture "on the other side". He doesn't care about us enough to actually try to convince us, he only cares about convincing himself that those who disagree with him will suffer in eternal torment. Here we see that his evangelical apathy and disingenuousness are exceeded only by his spiteful malice.
Why do you hate us so much, Dan? Why do you and your fellow Christians go to such lengths to persecute and denigrate those whose greatest "sin" has been to seek truth through verifiable evidence and sound reason?