Once more into the breach, dear friends. I must say, it does sound like the Fyrnsidu crowd might have some fantastic parties. (When I said that I thought I might have stumbled upon our caller Anna during my web search, I wasn't kidding. And she was very happy to be on, it seems.)
Sunday, March 20, 2011
51 comments:
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This episode should be titled, "This is what Caesar actually believes"
ReplyDeleteI just linked Anna to this blogpost; let's see if we can't get some discussion with her.
ReplyDeleteI was actually going to PM you on Facebook asking you how to spell her religion, but there's no need now.
When Caesar called in, I immediately thought it was going to be fun. He didn't disappoint me, of course.
I am going to remember your comment "Never met a bit of woo he didn't like" :-)
~Ian
Anna got some free advertising for Fyrnsidu on the AE but I'm unsure about the efficacy of it. She seems like a nice and smart girl though.
ReplyDeleteCaesar didn't make any argument that made any sense.
Are there links to where the studies of prayer have been show to be the same as random chance?
ReplyDeleteThis isn't the actual study itself but a report on it from Skeptic magazine. Scroll down to "Prayer & Healing".
ReplyDeleteCaesar reminded me of Douglas Adams' concept of the Electric Monk: A device or piece of software that took over the tedious business of believing and worshiping all of the various things that come along, all at the same time, regardless if they are mutually contradictory and couldn't possibly exist at the same time. Except, in his case, he's flesh and blood.
ReplyDelete"You name it, I'll believe it!" -- Caesar
"The unexamined life is not worth living for a human being." -- Socrates
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHas ceaser called in before? He sounds familiar and if it's who I think it is he has called in at least 2 other occasions in the past few months
ReplyDeleteThis would be like the 5th or 6th time he's called in. It usually goes the same.
ReplyDeleteYeah, my poe sensors are always tickled when Caesar calls. I really just can't tell if he is serious or not because it is essentially the same things each time, tho it seems he is adding a few more claims with each call. I loved how you all just let him roll for a little while. I wonder how long that list would have gone on if you hadn't finally stepped in.
ReplyDeleteWhy does Caesar keep getting on the show? Every time I hear him, I keep wondering, "Okay, now when is ERNIE from Sesame Street gonna call? Maybe he's an atheist..."
ReplyDeleteCaesar always makes me laugh. I don't know how one person can hold all those things as real.
ReplyDeleteMark Loewe had the comment of the day, after the show was over...roughly "Ceasar's Salad of beliefs".
ReplyDeleteIn other news, I was not in the right mood to do the show and my apologies to Martin and the viewers for doing a generally half-assed job.
No, I'm not looking for "Bah, you did great" comments. Sometimes, you I'm just going to perform poorly and recognizing it helps prevent it in the future. :)
I was shocked to hear Martin and Matt be so harsh and saying that theists bring no new arguments to the show. The "Why don't we die when the sun goes down? It must be thanks to god!" argument seemed quite new to me... :)
ReplyDeleteThen again you could file it under argument from ignorance, which is probably one of the oldest arguments for a god.
It is sort of a First Law of Apologetics - all theistic arguments employ at least one logical fallacy.
ReplyDeleteEh, I guess Caesar's calls are fine when the show is lacking in theist callers, it is kind of like playing spot the fallacy. I think he's taken up over two hours of show time at this point though, and the result of his calls is always the same - nothing really gained. He wants to believe, and he wants to believe that his faith is rational and backed up by evidence. He never manages to demonstrate that it is, and he just gets frustrated when fallacies are pointed out to him.
ReplyDeleteIt was awfully kind of him to present the hosts with a list of beliefs though. It was kind of lyrical, like his own Caesarean (?) Creed. At this point he might merit his own Iron Chariots page.
Cesar seems to think take on a tack this episode that the shear number of claims one can make which point to a given conclusion will support that conclusion, regardless of whether any of those claims are supported in themselves.
ReplyDelete...and yeah, he called in to the show before the New Year when Tracie and Jen were on, and rambled on about the same crap. If I never have to hear his monotonous drone on the show again, it won't be a loss.
Awesome episode guys :) It was my first time attending the live show, but definitely not the last! Martin, next time don't disappear so fast! Was awesome to meet Matt, Beth, Mark and several fans of the show :)
ReplyDelete@JT - love the First Law of Apologetics, now we need the second, third, and zeroth
ReplyDeleteWell, we already have three Pillars of Apologetics:
ReplyDelete1. Bald Assertions
2. Logical Fallacies
3. Emotional Appeals
So I suppose these three could be considered "laws."
~Ian
I thought the cesar bit was boring.
ReplyDeleteYes Cesar brings up the same shtuff every time, becauuse "you have no proof that he is wrong!!" haha!! Check mate!
ReplyDeleteBut guys out of body experiences are real! I mean...there's UFOs and ghosts, and souls, and god, and Jesus, and angels, and demons and Satan. All of those things prove OOBEs!
ReplyDelete(How was my Caesar imitation?)
Was just watching Red Eye and they showed a clip of a little kid who had a "near death" experience. He claims he was in heaven, saw god, spoke to jesus(who has blue eyes that made the heavens light up), and no one wears glasses. And there's lots of animals.
ReplyDeletePoor kid. I'm pretty sure someone fed him the blue eyes line.
The call that referenced Tron: Legacy having religious themes came about 30 years too late. The religious themes were thick in the original 1982 Tron. Programs either believed in "users" or they did not.The villain even used the phrase "religious fanatics" when ordering their arrest and detainment at "Master Control". I haven't seen it in quite some time but I think the diabolical enemy was essentially an atheistic operating system that persecuted belief in users.
ReplyDeleteCesar has already called before right? Years ago and then later, over several episodes, under different names, with the same boring voice presenting nothing at all. Even I, an atheist, am going to say that this particular one is a bad speaker for theism. Sure, there aren't any good arguments anyway, but I hate to say it, I can't detect any level of intelligence in the guy other than being able to talk a bit and form basic ideas that he doesn't even seem to be able to understand.
ReplyDeleteI don't know that a conversation with him has the potential to go anywhere (I mean even for other atheists and especially theists watching the show) and considering his past behavior of using different names, I would consider him a fake or rather a person with dubious intentions (he might not even realize his own intentions) and I would drop him as soon as I'd recognize him.
He had his chance, it was fun the first 200 times, but as much as I wouldn't usually say that for other callers (even the boring ones who call for the first time), he's stealing air time for other theists to prove themselves dumb, for good conversations or just listening to silence for a while.
Just clarifying a little something in my comment, I didn't mean that first time callers are all boring. I mean that of the first time callers, those who are actually boring, I'm less offended (don't know if it's the right word here) by their call than Cesar who's been on several times over the years with no apparent progression.
ReplyDeleteGenerally, I don't mind atheist callers, but there's a few types that I could do without:
ReplyDelete* Calling up and talking about some discussion you're having with someone else.
* "I need help with refuting an argument because I'm too lazy to research myself"
* Atheists poeing the show to try to entertain.
You guys will have to let us know when you see TRON Legacy. I'd love to get into the conversation with you about it but will refrain from doing so now so as not to spoil it for you. It comes out on disc 2 weeks today so I'll wait till a little after then but don't wait too long. I may be a patient man but even I have my limits.
ReplyDeleteGenerally, I don't mind atheist callers, but there's a few types that I could do without:
ReplyDelete* Calling up and talking about some discussion you're having with someone else.
* "I need help with refuting an argument because I'm too lazy to research myself"
* Atheists poeing the show to try to entertain.
^^ Post of the year!!! couldn't have said it better.
Still love the show though. Funny to hear theists think they don't have the burden of proof because there's a bible??
Couple of points:
ReplyDeleteI don't think Matt did a a bad job at all; he was gracious and self-effacing. A good team effort.
On Cesar (I think that is how he used to spell his name): you gotta laugh when the hosts ask a caller why he believes and he has to read his reasons off a piece of paper.
The real reason Cesar, and most other theists, believe is because that is how they were raised. All the rest is stuff obtained from christian websites. Why can't any of them be honest about why they believe?
Cesar does not have to make an argument that makes sense. He believes what he wants to. He may not even know why he believes, only that he does.
ReplyDeleteIt reminds me of people who have believed what they grew up with and never stopped to critically investigate these beliefs. They have often been surrounded by people with similar viewpoints, and as such were not challenged externally either. When they finally get exposed to opposing view points they get stuck. They may not even know why they believe what they do, and they find that simply asserting stuff is not gonna get it done. So they just sorta fall apart.
I go back and forth between what I think of Caesar/Cesar. He's called so many times and used up so much air time without the conversation ever going anywhere and I'm confused as to why he keeps calling. He either needs to understand that he's simply not justified in seeing his faith as something based on evidence and it's time to just accept it already and get on with his life, or he already knows that and is just trying to be a nuisance. If it's the former and he's legitimately that unreachable, I don't see how the conversations with him will ever change.
ReplyDeleteHis long call on Jen and Tracie's show had me on edge with impatience - man, he really sucked all the time out of that one.
I suppose though that for viewers who haven't seen the show yet, on shows where there haven't been any theist callers, he makes a good straight man of sorts. That list of beliefs was kind of awesome.
I am currently angry at blogspot for screwing up a fairly large post I just made, and now it's lost.
ReplyDeleteBlogspot, I hate you.
Trying this again.
ReplyDeleteI can basically understand where Caesar is coming from. Back when I was a theist, I was one of those "Evolution happens, and happened, just as science understands it, except, God established it that way, and maybe kicked a rock into a pond here and there to guide the evolutionary tree, as needed" people. I was fine with that rationalization, because it seemed to fit with what I already believed. The existence of God was one of those a prior things you just accept as true - like how I accept that I exist, without any real thought into it. It wasn't really a question.
I've always been into science. In fact, I have a row of 1st place trophies behind me from gradeschool science fair. I wanted to win 1st place so bad for my third year, in 8th grade, that I did a little bargaining with God. I traded swearing and having to read the Bible for 1st place. THEN I got down to working hard at winning it. I didn't realize at the time just what was wrong with this picture.
I thought the Bible was essentially a "Barentstein Bears" book for civilizations, whether it was us, or another race, that was essentially a training book to get us on our feet. Of course, I had no knowledge of the Bible. I got as far as Deuteronomy, I think, before I stopped. Nothing stuck out for me, because, I thought that the old testament was appropriate for the time, and we're at a higher stage now (New Testament).
My belief in a god waned over the course of a decade. It's sort of like my being a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles fan when I was a kid. Slowly, over time, without realizing it, I stopped being a fan. I didn't realize it was happening, until one day, I realized I didn't care for it anymore. It just slowly wore off. It was like that for my theism as well. I didn't even realize it was happening, until I was 23ish, and I was thinking about it, and realized I didn't believe anymore. I thought to myself, "I guess that means I'm an atheist".
If anyone, at any time before that, had actually asked me, "Why do you believe?", or "What evidence do you have that God played a role in any evolution happenings?", I would have been sent down that path a lot sooner. No one did, and I never thought about it. It never occurred to me to think about it.
Thus, rationalizations were born, as I was trying to resolve two obvious "Facts" - God and reality.
Obviously, Caesar has been asked these questions, but unlike myself, some people are a lot more invested in their beliefs. I hadn't been to church since I was 8, when my family moved, and never got back into church. You end up having to fight their investment before you can communicate with them rationally.
It's like Caesar was removed from the Matrix too early, and now he's fighting against reality, because he can't cope.
God is obvious, and he just needs to find a way to get us there.
When I "woke up", I realized how misled I was by my religious parents, and I swore that I wouldn't be tricked into believing BS anymore. I wanted to believe what was actually, demonstrably, true.
ReplyDeleteFyrnsidu sounds like another nice neopagan practice, but it has some unfortunate Nazi baggage to deal with.
ReplyDeleteFyrnsidu doesn't have nazi baggage, it does however have some racist baggage, but only because racists use heathen religions to promote their idiotic agenda. There's nothing in the religion itself that is racist.
ReplyDeleteAh neopagans, if there was a set of supernatural religious beliefs I had to follow they are closest to my heart.
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of interested, Anna, why exactly it is that you are a Fyrnsidu follower (for lack of a better word). A major theme for the show, as you probably know, is the question "What do you believe and why?" As I see it, there's no more evidence for Fyrnsidu than for the Judeo-Christian god; what reason do you have for believing?
ReplyDelete~Ian
As a frequenter of atheist discussion boards, I've gotten this question quite a bit, hehe. I guess I could be lazy and just paste a link to one of the threads of my interrogation, but rather than make you read through all that I'll just sum up.
ReplyDeleteBecause it makes sense to me, and I believe it to be true. The evidence I have for this is not applicable to any of you, as it is anecdotal in nature, and not scientifically objective.
Many times people(mostly atheists) have told me that my religion isn't really a religion, it's more of a hobby. I think people see it that way because it doesn't have the hallmark characteristics of other theistic religions. There's no holy book, no commandments, no sin, the afterlife is unimportant(no heaven or hell), morality is based on social contract rather than a god's whims, the belief in a god or gods isn't especially necessary(there are atheists among us), etc. There are some of us who prefer to not call it a religion, but instead call it a folkway, or worldview. I just call it a religion to keep it simple, because it is a system of beliefs. I can understand why someone wouldn't consider it a religion though.
sorry for the digression.
Besides what John K said, which really is a lynch pin to my believing anything. Fyrnsidu just sounds really fundagelical to me. "Fire inside you" really? I could so see some fundamentalist evangelical church pushing that.
ReplyDeleteAnna, don't take my last comment too seriously, I joke quite often. :)
ReplyDeleteAnna,
ReplyDeleteDon't apologize, religious discussions aren't a digression here.
Why would evidence that you accept not be applicable to us? Why do you accept it if it's not scientifically objective?
because it's anecdotal. Unless you experienced it yourself, it's just hearsay.
ReplyDeleteRe: César: I noticed that when he was talking about Out-Of-Body Experiences the conversation turned to whether or not there were studies proving OBEs to be false, and Matt when online and pulled up a couple, which led to César claiming they were faulty.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that pulling up those studies went against the rule of allowing the believer to shift the burden of proof to the skeptic. Really, those studies _don't_ disprove OBEs, rather they demonstrate that there is no proof to _support_ a belief in OBEs (like our atheism). It opened a door to César to shift the burden.
IMHO Matt should not have gone looking for any studies proving OBEs false (like citing a study that claims to prove without a doubt that no god exists), but instead should have asked César for studies showing that OBEs have been conclusively proven _true_?
It seems to me that this is a standard theist tactic though - since the 'debate' degenerated into one of the credibility of OBE studies which couldn't be answered given the time constraints. I think a better approach would be the Hitchens one of "so what" and how do OBEs get you to deism, and from there how do you get to your own particular religious sect?
ReplyDeleteRacists using the religion to promote their idiotic agenda is a big part of it - all authoritarians pick a worldview whose ideas they will abuse for their own purposes, like Roman Christianity or Russian Marxism.
ReplyDeleteBut just as important is that the horribly dangerous Volkish position demands that people adopt and respect the "old original authentic religion of our People". Let me say that neopagans, with their deep respect for ancient tribal religious culture, need to work harder at dissociating themselves from that stuff.
The Folkish are a bit annoying at times, but I would not consider their position dangerous, let alone "horribly dangerous".
ReplyDelete"My name is Caesar and I believe everything I hear"
ReplyDeleteLULZ
I remember a while back when Cesar called claiming that OBEs were proof of the Christian faith because nobody ever meets the Devil. I proceeded to Google "Out of body experience Devil" and came up with a treasure trove of NDE's involving the Devil.
ReplyDeleteI think Cesar's MO is "I haven't heard of it. Therefore, it doesn't exist." Even further than that, he doesn't even bother to look for things that might prove him wrong before he says they don't exist. It's like a creationist who claims there are no transitional fossils even though he/she has never lifted a finger to look for them.