tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post8720942666532375563..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: George Tiller: Death by PropagandaUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-91127845763658092322009-06-11T23:29:23.116-05:002009-06-11T23:29:23.116-05:00IMO that is the most brilliant "Theory" ...IMO that is the most brilliant "Theory" that I have ever heard, showing the hypocrisy of calling abortions "Baby Killers".<br /><br />In fact, I used it on my mother and I think it might have changed her mind about abortion. We hardly ever talk about religion or politics that we disagree on. Instead of hashing it out and, most likely, one of us getting upset, we just agree to disagree. But when the conversation turned to the death of George Tiller, I seized the opportunity and threw out your theory on her. At the end of that I asked her if she actually thought that babies were being murdered, wouldn't she do something about it? Her eyes kind of opened up and she reluctantly nodded. She then gave me a smile and a look as though she knew that I was right. She didn't actually say anything, but knowing my mom, I could tell she had just realized that she didn't actually think babies were being killed. I left the conversation at that. I didn't want to "push" her and possibly ruin her conversion to sanity.<br /><br />The ideas and opinions all of you have here, and on the show, are genius. I thank you for them.village1diothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10418231742234754022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-6685520858381274802009-06-10T13:28:01.545-05:002009-06-10T13:28:01.545-05:00I've discovered recently that the one thing I ...I've discovered recently that the one thing I value above everything else is individual liberty, personal freedom. This puts me firmly on the 'choice' side of the abortion argument, because _nothing_ pisses me off faster than people who think they get to tell other people how to live their lives.-Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07423776253697799481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-59355719323954452272009-06-10T09:35:00.616-05:002009-06-10T09:35:00.616-05:00I suppose everyone here may already have read this...I suppose everyone here may already have read this, but just in case, I want to add this url to the debate, since this is an article everyone who wants to discuss the abortion issue ought to have read.<br /><br />http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.htmlLeisha Camdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04768409807832229050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-342443173253944642009-06-09T16:28:23.892-05:002009-06-09T16:28:23.892-05:00By allowing abortions, the assumed believer is com...<i>By allowing abortions, the assumed believer is complacent with the act, and thereby endangering themselves of hell. </i><br /><br />Oh, I'm sure that would be the reasoning - if they took it that far. That's my point - they never do.<br /><br />In any case, according to their own belief system, they're basically robbing someone else of a one-way ticket heaven, in order to "earn" a place there for themselves (even though they're always telling us that salvation can't be earned).Jeff Eygeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11967707883565162538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78970686651961776112009-06-09T15:54:13.177-05:002009-06-09T15:54:13.177-05:00cipher,
Based on your reasoning and assumptions, ...cipher,<br /><br />Based on your reasoning and assumptions, I would agree with you to a point.<br /><br />Of course this wouldn't be true if you believed death before baptism means the soul goes to hell or limbo. I also suspect there are, while minority represented, a considerable number of right-wing conservatives who in a desperate situation opt for abortion.<br /><br />When I said above I agree to a point, my reasons for not wholly agreeing are as follows. First I’ll restate the assumptions required:<br /><br />1. The Assumed Believer is evangelical, or desires to inform and help others get into heaven.<br /><br />2. Assumed Believer deems that the soul of an aborted child goes to heaven.<br /><br />3. Assumed Believer deems that the here-and-now material world pales in comparison to the importance of the afterlife.<br /><br />4. Assumed Believer (hereafter, AB) deems that anybody getting an abortion is liberal/secular in their perspectives.<br /><br />5. Liberals/secularists all eventually go to hell.<br /><br />6. All children of liberal/secular people necessarily become liberal/secular themselves, and as a result, also go to hell.<br /><br />The logical inconsistency stated was that from the AB’s perspective, the person having an abortion is sending their unborn child to heaven, whereas without the abortion, said child would unavoidably go to hell. In contrast, the anti-abortionist AB is forcing a soul into eternal damnation by failing to allow a last chance expedition of the soul to heaven via abortion. Therefore, the abortionist is saving the child from eternal damnation, while the AB is condemning it, the inconsistency being that the AB is supposed to be helping to get people into heaven, not hell.<br /><br />However, this construct fails to incorporate or allow that the AB considers abortion to be an act of murder. By allowing abortions, the assumed believer is complacent with the act, and thereby endangering themselves of hell. Therefore, the believer is caught in a Catch 22 situation, whereby whatever choice they take, someone is going to hell.<br /><br />All this said, some significant assumptions had to be made in order to allow for this logical construct. Whole groups of people are necessarily incapable of change, or unable to be saved. That in and of itself is a step far from reality. Furthermore, and not elaborated on much within the assumptions, is that the heaven/hell issue may not very important to the believer. Rather, they may feel that it is simply an issue of morality.<br /><br />I think the real angle to tackle this issue of abortion is more research and education. If the research is already there, then we need more and better channels of education and communication. How we get that, I have no idea, but I’m certain education and knowledge is the key.Ai Denghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12141023502945802293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-24439770265499496682009-06-09T15:24:14.050-05:002009-06-09T15:24:14.050-05:00I think if you look at it in black and white theol...I think if you look at it in black and white theology then ya, sure abort away (same with Jews, I mean, if they don't accept the 13 principles, they should simply abort), but to a believer, a Christian and a Jew, <i>life</i> is also paramount, and so is free will. Nobody has simply said kill a fetus because they may not believe in Jesus. <br /><br />Also—for the sake of argument—simply going by your own example you say "chances are." That is not a certainty is it? Liberals also believe in Jesus and child can come out later to believe.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-61574121754287654112009-06-09T13:54:33.738-05:002009-06-09T13:54:33.738-05:00If you go into a forum frequented by moderate evan...If you go into a forum frequented by moderate evangelicals who are sort of detoxing from the fundie side of the fence (Jay Bakker's site is a good example), once in a while, one of them will bring this up, and others will say, "That never occurred to me!" This always floors me. They're <i>obsessed</i> with heaven and hell, and this is staring them in the face, but they don't see it; it has to be pointed out to them.Jeff Eygeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11967707883565162538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-6028906985637419862009-06-09T13:33:45.173-05:002009-06-09T13:33:45.173-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-73875949224710006312009-06-09T13:25:13.343-05:002009-06-09T13:25:13.343-05:00"This is the sort of logical inconsistency th..."This is the sort of logical inconsistency that seems never to occur to them."<br /><br />That's because the majority of believers don't care to take the time to think about these things. But most of the people reading this probably already knew that. It's a great point you brought up by the way, cipher. I hope I remember it next time I have a discussion with a pro-life Christian.Tyler Olsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02266867686223090208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-44457805407407504162009-06-09T10:19:42.024-05:002009-06-09T10:19:42.024-05:00With this, I interpret that there is a great deal ...<i>With this, I interpret that there is a great deal of doubt and fear in many believers, perhaps even repressed cognition of no afterlife.<br /></i><br /><br />I agree, and there's another facet of this as well. They believe these aborted fetuses have souls that go straight to heaven, without first having to suffer through life - what a deal! However, if these babies were born to liberal/secular parents (which one assumes they would be if they were considering abortion), chances are they'll grow up to be non-believers, and go to hell when they die. So, the parents who abort are actually responsible for sending their children to heaven, while those who oppose abortion would be condemning them to eternity in hell.<br /><br />This is the sort of logical inconsistency that seems never to occur to them.Jeff Eygeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11967707883565162538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-84832337953919965092009-06-09T10:07:48.489-05:002009-06-09T10:07:48.489-05:00I would like to revisit something previously menti...I would like to revisit something previously mentioned and very briefly discussed above. While the point may seem trite, there is something to be interpreted by the fact that so many believers in an afterlife mourn so deeply the loss of a loved one. If it is in fact true that a person believes in an afterlife, where reunion necessarily approaches, it seems the melancholy of death should not occur to such a degree. Yes, we may and do feel sad when loved ones depart, both yet remaining alive. We “miss” them, as the response was given herein. But should merely missing a person, yet knowing you will one day be reunited cause such a deep sadness, that there has actually been established stages of death such as that of the Kubler-Ross model. And further, that within these stages, merely missing somebody can cause someone to never advance beyond certain stages of this paradigm.<br /><br />With this, I interpret that there is a great deal of doubt and fear in many believers, perhaps even repressed cognition of no afterlife.Ai Denghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12141023502945802293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-57603867664053721552009-06-08T16:25:09.897-05:002009-06-08T16:25:09.897-05:00>Problem is that THEY DON'T AGREE WITH YOU....>Problem is that THEY DON'T AGREE WITH YOU. <br /><br />Um ya, and I care why? I mean, isent this my exact point to Cipher?Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-20406023390620035812009-06-08T16:09:43.769-05:002009-06-08T16:09:43.769-05:00>I'm also perplexed that HH seems to think ...>I'm also perplexed that HH seems to think that Political Conservative and Atheist are mutually exclusive.<br /><br />Not exactly sure when you go that from. You mean from my "you might find an atheist" comment? You realize that had nothing to do with political conservativness.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-73033065161354136112009-06-08T15:52:40.613-05:002009-06-08T15:52:40.613-05:00I'm also perplexed that HH seems to think that...I'm also perplexed that HH seems to think that Political Conservative and Atheist are mutually exclusive.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15677092968714424939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-12176402982319176072009-06-08T15:28:58.490-05:002009-06-08T15:28:58.490-05:00I am not knowledgeable in Christian theology to we...I am not knowledgeable in Christian theology to well. But in the very few places I have heard about certain beliefs of the heart, I would disagree with them entirely. I don't think lusting with the heart can be equated in any means to lusting with deed. It may not be a good thing, but I disagree with its moral implication."<br /><br />Well bully for you, you're sane. Problem is that THEY DON'T AGREE WITH YOU. What you think is irrelevant to the topic.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15677092968714424939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-31565508615094559852009-06-08T15:22:09.086-05:002009-06-08T15:22:09.086-05:00Sounds like they probably ought to read that book ...<i>Sounds like they probably ought to read that book of theirs more thoroughly.</i><br /><br />Or at all.AtheistUnderMaskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15835169901704552498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-6043856517880831192009-06-08T15:21:18.486-05:002009-06-08T15:21:18.486-05:00>Is this what your Christian friends believe?
...>Is this what your Christian friends believe? <br /><br />Irrelevant to the people in <i>this</i> discussion. <br /><br /><br />Then I'm afraid their precious Jesus disagreed with them. In his opinion, thought crime was real crime. Sounds like they probably ought to read that book of theirs more thoroughly.<br /><br />I am not knowledgeable in Christian theology to well. But in the very few places I have heard about certain beliefs of the heart, I would disagree with them entirely. I don't think lusting with the heart can be equated in any means to lusting with deed. It may not be a good thing, but I disagree with its moral implication.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-90047835265825930802009-06-08T15:12:43.623-05:002009-06-08T15:12:43.623-05:00"I can't go any further than to state mor..."I can't go any further than to state morality is about conduct, not beliefs."<br /><br />Is this what your Christian friends believe? Then I'm afraid their precious Jesus disagreed with them. In his opinion, thought crime was real crime. Sounds like they probably ought to read that book of theirs more thoroughly.Leisha Camdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04768409807832229050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-29946117162646200202009-06-08T10:39:07.370-05:002009-06-08T10:39:07.370-05:00>Hitler was not an atheist. Your attitude is co...>Hitler was not an atheist. Your attitude is consistantly insulting.<br /><br />I wasn't referring to Hitler. I was referring to Peter Singer.<br /><br />BTW, you mind explaining the "consistantly insulting" part?<br /><br />Nu, and what did the Warrior say? That its ok to dump unfit children?<br /><br />>My religion teacher in HS promoted him as a good conservative spokesman.<br /><br />Ok. So does that mean I get to claim Ward Churchill is a good liberal spokesman?Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-83874110578160870412009-06-08T07:46:37.986-05:002009-06-08T07:46:37.986-05:00Fair enough. But you would be hard pressed to find...Fair enough. But you would be hard pressed to find a conservative that has any connection to that part of the film. But you may find an atheist. Perhaps you know to who I speak of.":<br /><br />Hitler was not an atheist. Your attitude is consistantly insulting.<br /><br />Also...I DO know a Conservative who feels that way. Check out the Ultimate Warrior (yes he legally changed his name to "Warrior). My religion teacher in HS promoted him as a good conservative spokesman.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15677092968714424939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-87712540206644334522009-06-07T20:39:59.787-05:002009-06-07T20:39:59.787-05:00>But killing babies not up to their standard wa...>But killing babies not up to their standard was part of THEIR way of life! <br /><br />Fair enough. But you would be hard pressed to find a conservative that has any connection to that part of the film. But you may find an atheist. Perhaps you know to who I speak of.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-77890639961803467162009-06-07T19:46:03.906-05:002009-06-07T19:46:03.906-05:00You're nit picking. The movie is not about tha...<em>You're nit picking. The movie is not about that scene but about a small band of warriors protecting THEIR way of life from an aggressor.</em><br /><br />But killing babies not up to their standard was part of THEIR way of life! If you are going to have a society of top-notched warriors, then there is no place for the sick and the deformed.Tommykeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751182125861177379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-83774607783304117342009-06-07T18:53:36.706-05:002009-06-07T18:53:36.706-05:00Well, I can't go back and forth about this any...Well, I can't go back and forth about this any longer. As I said, we're speaking different languages.Jeff Eygeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11967707883565162538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-46335782583631746612009-06-07T18:27:45.512-05:002009-06-07T18:27:45.512-05:00>their beliefs are a barometer of their moralit...>their beliefs are a barometer of their morality.<br /><br />If you say so. <br /><br />>They're perfectly content to see the vast majority of human beings, billions of their siblings, being tortured for all of eternity.<br /><br />They are perfectly content to first and foremost for everyone to accept the truth of Jesus. I mean they proselytize to everyone for gods sake. It's not like they hold the secret for eternal bliss all to themselves. But at the same time they understand (as any religion does) that if you don't do X (or belief in X) then Y is going to happen to you. <br /><br />How different is this then Judaism notion of the 13 principles?<br /><br />>and they actually derive pleasure from this.<br /><br />WIth any of my christian co workers and friends, I have yet to bump into that particular part where they actually derive pleasure that I will fry. They understand it as a consequence of my free will, but pleasure?<br /><br />>I have no problem seeing it as a form of criminal derangement. Indeed, I can't see it in any other way.<br /><br />Of course you don't. You create a red herring, then derive some moral equivalence to it when in reality, actual reality, this is plan not true. I think people here really need to sit with a criminal insane person and a christian in the same room, then come back and tell me if they are the same. If you truly believe that this is in par with criminal derangement, then i would say you should petition your representative to have them thrown in jail/mental facility and keep every christian away from children. This of course would be the logical step to your opinion would it not?<br /><br />>I don't think you really understand this. I daresay it's completely foreign to any mindset to which you've been exposed. In fact, you probably think I'm exaggerating, or being melodramatic. Please believe me - I'm not. I'm older than you are, and I've spent decades "sojourning among the nations". There are things out there that it would be well nigh impossible for a nice frum boy to wrap his mind around. This is probably one of them.<br /><br />I do think you are being over dramatic here and I have seen this typically with atheists lately. I think every since this explosion of "new atheists" there are a lot of angry people out there that, though smart, are way too emotional in this case and end up conflating way too many things together in a pursuit to smear an awfully lot of people.<br /><br />I think you conflate being offended by a belief with thinking they are immoral. I can't go any further than to state morality is about conduct, not beliefs. <br />And age has nothing to do with it. I have met many stupid older people (not talking about you). <br /><br />And I am not sure how frum you think I am.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-45579303394913791092009-06-07T17:49:59.003-05:002009-06-07T17:49:59.003-05:00HH, let me put it this way - their beliefs are a b...HH, let me put it this way - their beliefs <i>are</i> a barometer of their morality. They're perfectly content to see the vast majority of human beings, billions of their siblings, being tortured for all of eternity. Many, as I said earlier, anticipate it eagerly. I don't know how much more hateful a human being could possibly be.<br /><br />This isn't merely a difference of theological opinion - for example, they think it's possible for God to become incarnate in human form, and we do not (we'll leave Kabbalah out of this for the moment). They're convinced that 90% of humanity will exist in a state far worse than any gulag or concentration camp could ever have been, and that it will go on for all of eternity - and they actually derive pleasure from this. I have no problem seeing it as a form of criminal derangement. Indeed, I can't see it in any other way.<br /><br />I don't think you really understand this. I daresay it's completely foreign to any mindset to which you've been exposed. In fact, you probably think I'm exaggerating, or being melodramatic. Please believe me - I'm not. I'm older than you are, and I've spent decades "sojourning among the nations". There are things out there that it would be well nigh impossible for a nice <i>frum</i> boy to wrap his mind around. This is probably one of them.Jeff Eygeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11967707883565162538noreply@blogger.com