tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post7208279180311359574..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: On keeping your coolUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-86918821653875511212009-09-02T22:45:08.213-05:002009-09-02T22:45:08.213-05:00@ Curt
God? Is that you? Who is this Curt fellow...@ Curt<br />God? Is that you? Who is this Curt fellow? How do you know I sent that link?<br />I sent that link to the AEtv address, and realized shortly after that it was old news. But the link in my first post is to an article titled, "Decoding God's Changing Moods". Which is the subject of a discussion I've been having with my in-laws' pastor. I would be very interested to hear feedback about the article from the folks here.tfahey1https://www.blogger.com/profile/09188446084631520814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-54041193351274699202009-08-28T13:05:41.778-05:002009-08-28T13:05:41.778-05:00I think the overall point of the shifting burden o...I think the overall point of the shifting burden of proof stands.<br /><br />Charlatans and idiots like Matt Slick and the like build their _entire careers_ off the back of simple maneuvers like this.... <br /><br />All it takes is a simple gloss here and there and pretty soon you're debating the nuances of the bible, the actual question of whether it has any basis at all or not to begin with completley lost in the dust of our chase after the theist round and round mount Sinai....<br /><br />I personally think it's vital that we remind our opponents at every available opportunity that atheism is NOT a belief system. It also makes NO positive claims about the existence of the plaintiff's gods. <br /><br />We merely take a skeptical position towards the _theists_ claims that they _know_ their god _does_ exist. Our attention needs to remain on demanding evidence for the theist's claims and the discussion shouldn't drift into justifying a straw-man claim to the contrary by the theist.<br /><br />So I'm with Kazim on this one....lshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17901508236729383702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-47284310511082470262009-08-28T11:07:50.481-05:002009-08-28T11:07:50.481-05:00There's lots of goals. Honest discussion can b...There's lots of goals. Honest discussion can be a goal in and of itself.<br /><br />I agree, Kazim. Carl did accuse Jesse of being a fraud. I know lots of ministers (including my father) and while there are a few of them that probably are frauds, most of them are quite sincere. They really do believe what they are preaching. Besides, you can't really know what the motivations of the minister really are. That was Carl's big mistake.<br /><br />If Carl had really wanted honest discussion, he probably should have offered to meet the minister in person. It's really difficult to accuse a sincere person of fraud in person and in public.Robert Madewellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13237253238274655114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-2982294093202131422009-08-28T10:19:10.902-05:002009-08-28T10:19:10.902-05:00Liked that post, those are all good advices. It is...Liked that post, those are all good advices. It is essential to stay measured in our arguments and not use the same kind of sophisms as many believers. Although I understand Carl must have been frustrated at some point.Guillaumehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12376749604845793465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-65930809308186474742009-08-28T09:59:50.260-05:002009-08-28T09:59:50.260-05:00Appropriate or not, Carl's response to Jesse w...Appropriate or not, Carl's response to Jesse was a debate ender. Perhaps he could had used an analogy to get his points across, rather than a personal attack.Terry Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06555026920269528381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-62776511788353340082009-08-27T21:36:36.582-05:002009-08-27T21:36:36.582-05:00And let's not forget that Carl called Jesse a ...And let's not forget that Carl called Jesse a liar, when Jesse gave Carl no reason to suspect dishonesty (as far as I can see.)soul_biscuithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10017109360122087908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-27167305897143835902009-08-27T07:17:51.558-05:002009-08-27T07:17:51.558-05:00I think some of you are missing Kazim's point....I think some of you are missing Kazim's point. He isn't saying Carl's response was inappropriate. He's pointing out that Carl appears to be disappointed with the reply he got--which is why he sent the correspondence to the AE list.<br /><br />What Kazim is saying is that if Carl wanted to tell Jesse to piss off, then mission accomplished. But if Carl wanted something different, then Carl made an error by replying in a way that clearly came across as "get pissed."<br /><br />Appropriateness of any response can only be gauged by what we hope to accomplish with our response. Clearly Carl did not want to blow Jesse off, and doesn't understand what happened. Kazim is explaining that it was unrealistic to expect anything BUT Jesse's exit from the dialogue, based on Carl's reply. And I agree with Kazim 100 percent. If a theist came at me with that same style of correspondence, I'd consider dialogue a waste of my time and I'd either not reply or reply curtly and with finality.<br /><br />If Carl intended to engage Jesse--and it appears he did--he went about it all wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-9339880317442488392009-08-26T16:45:44.144-05:002009-08-26T16:45:44.144-05:00Hey tfahey1, that Time article you linked to (here...Hey tfahey1, that Time article you linked to (<a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,877155,00.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>) is from 1970, and the decision was overturned in 1971.Curt Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08048312089881459521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-18153188659044592102009-08-25T18:52:36.252-05:002009-08-25T18:52:36.252-05:00@The Expatriate:
Yes, Carl's response to Jess...@The Expatriate:<br /><br />Yes, Carl's response to Jesse was appropriate in and of itself given that Jesse's contacting Carl was unsolicited, but that's not the issue. The issue is he's emailed Russell about it for some reason. If Carl were just trying to say "Hey, fuck off!" then yeah...he did a great job and I have no problem with what he said, but it seems like maybe he's trying to get something more out of his exchange with Jesse....which, as Russell said, means he should apologize to Jesse if he wants to continue to engage him.<br /><br />Personally, if some pastor emailed me out of the blue about religion and I wasn't in the mood to accomodate a discussion or a particularly bad mood for some other reason, I can see myself saying something very similar to what Carl did.<br /><br />But then, the fact that the pastor thinks the burden of "disproof" is on Carl is probably a good indication the discussion wouldn't be a very good one.Sparrowhawkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16520765821903563677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-86092060780345917302009-08-25T03:46:54.930-05:002009-08-25T03:46:54.930-05:00If Carl had any desire to further the conversation...If Carl had any desire to further the conversation then his response was overly personal.<br /><br />My response would have been along the lines of:<br />What evidence do you have that Jesus was God?<br />Why is that evidence better than what the Jews believe?<br />Why shouldn't we take Mohammed at his word when he said he was God's messenger?<br />Why is there not one moral or story in the Bible that we cannot find in other societies around that time? If all God did was to take the best(!?) morality tales of the time and place them into one book then why revere Him when any human could have done the same?<br />Why are so many evil things allowed, if not actively commanded, in the Bible such as slavery?<br /><br />Why do you claim morality comes from God and is present only in humans when we see fairness, altruism and empathy in chimps, dogs and even (to a degree) rats?<br />Where are all the moderate relious people who should be out there shouting down the crazies in the ID camp? (May not work if Jesse is an ID believer)<br />Why are there so many branches of Christianity with such conflicting beliefs, how can you possibly know/think that you have the correct one? Not to mention the number of different religions.<br /><br />Any religious person who can answer most of these is doing well, anyone who can answer all of them, in an acceptable manner, deserves to be heard.March Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116034158087704885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-66394703239259879882009-08-24T18:38:44.084-05:002009-08-24T18:38:44.084-05:00You missed one...
Goals can include:
1.Convincing ...You missed one...<br />Goals can include:<br />1.Convincing the other person.<br />2.Convincing an audience.<br />3.Entertaining an audience (if the opponent is too big a crackpot to be taken seriously).<br />4.Practice.<br /><b>5.Telling a religious creep to get stuffed.</b>Improbable Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00388199130147075176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-37690876365908582222009-08-24T18:26:51.953-05:002009-08-24T18:26:51.953-05:00I guess my first post didn't publish.
Thanks...I guess my first post didn't publish. <br /><br />Thanks for this post Kazim! I feel like I am in the same boat as Carl, somewhat. I have been in a conversation with my in-laws pastor about an article in Time. I don't believe I lost my cool, but I was considering writing to the show to ask for advice on continuing the discussion and also for a short critique of what he and I had previously written. Maybe I'll still do that.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks again. This gives me some things to keep in mind as we continue our discussion.tfahey1https://www.blogger.com/profile/09188446084631520814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-27100605133105178462009-08-24T18:22:26.770-05:002009-08-24T18:22:26.770-05:00Personally, I have to disagree, at least somewhat,...Personally, I have to disagree, at least somewhat, as I think that Carl's response to Jesse was legitimate. Keep in mind that, if I understand correctly, Jesse initiated the conversation in order to attract him back to Christianity. Carl did not solicit the conversation, although he engaged in it once invited. Those who try to convert others to their beliefs can reasonably expect some hostility.<br /><br />Furthermore, Jesse's final reply to Carl comes across as petulant more than anything. Carl gave him no reason to believe he was a seeker, at least based on the excerpts we are presented, and Jesse complains of a waste of time that he took upon himself uninvited.The Expatriatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11762488684043664889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-13049549988334089422009-08-24T18:22:04.886-05:002009-08-24T18:22:04.886-05:00Whoops!
You can find the article here. http://www...Whoops!<br /><br />You can find the article here. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1902851,00.htmltfahey1https://www.blogger.com/profile/09188446084631520814noreply@blogger.com