tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post6014216719252956973..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: Non Credo in Unum Deum: Religion in classical musicUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-8114704292101030342010-10-13T17:12:25.917-05:002010-10-13T17:12:25.917-05:00I don't doubt that it is horrible, given that ...I don't doubt that it is horrible, given that I last took Latin in, oh, eighth grade.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-44214329214205854802010-10-13T16:55:10.737-05:002010-10-13T16:55:10.737-05:00Your Latin is horrible. "Uni deo non credo&qu...Your Latin is horrible. "Uni deo non credo" would have been much better.Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16589944841250514505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-37701323411342324922010-10-11T17:06:50.586-05:002010-10-11T17:06:50.586-05:00That was a great post and one I was sort of hoping...That was a great post and one I was sort of hoping one of you would make one day, as it fascinates me. I am a great admirer of Mozart myself and of great music. I don't have time to comment on this post as much as I want so I will come back to it, but here is a few thought: I think what religious people often mistake aesthetic and devotion, just like they confuse moral and devotion. When one enjoys Mozart's mass or requiem, it is first and foremost an aesthetic, and therefore physical, experience. In a way, those earthly feelings were hijacked by religious people, which is a shame. <br /><br />And let's not forget that Mozart also gave us one of the most seductive, libertine and blaspheming character in operatic history with Don Giovanni...Guillaumehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12376749604845793465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-52300974048415151962010-10-11T01:41:36.868-05:002010-10-11T01:41:36.868-05:00@Ian - I figured as much about the "in."...@Ian - I figured as much about the "in." If it were me, I would want to disassociate my Latin from church Latin. :) Good call on the nullum.<br /><br />As far as art and the church...I have visited numerous museums both here and abroad and always wonder what we would have if all those artists didn't have to paint God themes all those centuries. I like the paintings for their artisitic merits, but as my aunt and I joke when we look at the 100th painting of Jesus that year..."That guy, *again*?"roamingirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07250062043685978249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-20991396563167564402010-10-10T14:51:47.626-05:002010-10-10T14:51:47.626-05:00Something that has always intrigued me is religion...Something that has always intrigued me is religion and its connection to architecture and acoustics. I have a nominally Catholic friend (although her and I have had some heated arguments in the past!) that is very involved in her chamber choir. She has invited me to hear her sing a number of times and the thing that has struck me was the way that the voices interact with the space that they sang in.<br /><br />I tried to envisage a time in the not too recent past when the only large sonorous buildings that lay people were allowed into were the churches (larger buildings being owned or accessed only by wealthier segments of the population). These buildings were purpose built to create a reverberation that simply wasn't heard except in specific naturally occurring structures and I think it gave the songs and sermons a quality that sounded truly supernatural to the listeners of the time. The differences between the folk music of the age, played and sung in wooden structures by small groups of people and the grandiose sound within a church or cathedral were so incredibly different as to say that the latter was 'divine'. Such pure harmonics that reflect back to the listener and trail off long after the note is sung gave the songs and speech an otherworldly quality that no one had really heard before.<br /><br />Flash forward a few hundred years when secular music halls were built, the acoustics were retained. Flash forward to the present day and anyone with a laptop can call up cutting edge convolution reverb (an echo effect that mimics actual spaces, you can put your vocal track in anything from the taj mahal to the ATLAS chamber of the LHC) but the effect on the listener is the same. The sound was once only ever heard in 'God's House' but has been secularised.<br /><br />Bbribasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12960856622376462933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-62795403454530941702010-10-10T12:46:07.169-05:002010-10-10T12:46:07.169-05:00Back when I was a Catholic, those drawn-out, Latin...Back when I was a Catholic, those drawn-out, Latin-text Gregorian chants would make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up... but I don't know if it was the text that did it, or the striking tonality of the <i>a capella</i> singing. :-/<br /><br />I love a good <i>Carmina Burana</i>, as well, but don't forget that, when written, it didn't <i>have</i> music attached to it -- that was provded later by the German composer Carl Orff, which is how this (<a rel="nofollow">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/CarminaBurana_wheel.jpg</a>) was able to become this (<a rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xscsuuKF6ZE&fmt=18</a>)...<br /><br />...beautiful, isn't it? :-)Matthew Blanchettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03829163626544348823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-73909167208291428132010-10-09T10:14:58.751-05:002010-10-09T10:14:58.751-05:00Great post.
I'm a written-down-music centric ...Great post.<br /><br />I'm a written-down-music centric musician as well. I sing in several choirs and do a lot of composing.<br /><br />I've thought often of the conflict of being a non-believer and being involved in a tradition that owes it's existence to the scholarship of the early church. Not to mention the fact that singing religious music is pretty much unavoidable if you're in a choir.<br /><br />I'm still not totally sure why singing those texts doesn't make me feel as icky as hearing a sermon but I definitely feel like it's more about the music and the sensuality of it rather than the message of the texts.<br /><br />It's an interesting subject I'd like to see brought up more in these circles.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800890787677272163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-61541379960397917582010-10-09T06:38:14.211-05:002010-10-09T06:38:14.211-05:00Great post, Russell! I love music and I love the ...Great post, Russell! I love music and I love the Latin language (as you probably already know).<br /><br />"Non Credo in Unum Deum<br /><br />("Credo in Unum Deum" means "I believe in one God." The "Non" was my own addition.)"<br /><br />So... you believe in <i>many</i> gods? ^_~<br /><br />You want to say, "<b>Credo in Nullum Deum</b>"!<br /><br />"As a Latin teacher, I have to say that in Classical Latin, credo takes a dative not in + ablative. So, no need for the "in" and the ending is still fine b/c dat and abl is the same. Sorry."<br /><br />Ah, but Ecclesiastical Latin takes the <i><a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dcredo" rel="nofollow">credo</a></i> + <i>in</i> + acc. construction to say "I believe in God."<br /><br />"You can delete my comment after you read it and not post it. I don't want to look like an asshole. :)"<br /><br />No worries.Ian Andreas Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10103464386296743152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-52279661237910291692010-10-09T00:47:04.608-05:002010-10-09T00:47:04.608-05:00As a Latin teacher, I have to say that in Classica...As a Latin teacher, I have to say that in Classical Latin, credo takes a dative not in + ablative. So, no need for the "in" and the ending is still fine b/c dat and abl is the same. Sorry. Really, I can't help it. Esp since we talked about that very construction today in class. And yes, that means it should be credo deo. But the Mass isn't classical Latin, I am guessing. So, really it all depends on what period of Latin you want your credo associated with. You can delete my comment after you read it and not post it. I don't want to look like an asshole. :)roamingirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07250062043685978249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-3666188329342558362010-10-08T23:05:29.894-05:002010-10-08T23:05:29.894-05:00This is not news to you, I'm sure, but I think...This is not news to you, I'm sure, but I think it is always important to remember that Bach, Mozart and Beethoven were professional musicians. They worked on commission and salary basis and had to write what they they were paid to write. They didn't often get to pick their subjects. Bach had to have a new cantata every f-ing week based on some biblical text; that was his job. Of course he believed in the religion, if he had so much as hinted that he didn't, he would have been fired and then invited to a barbecue where he was the one being barbecued. Those were some very mean and dangerous times. Which, to my mind, only makes the accomplishments more awe inspiring.minushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08753445398306415857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-16373724165691881252010-10-08T22:57:54.778-05:002010-10-08T22:57:54.778-05:00Talking strictly about music, it's essential t...Talking strictly about music, it's essential to realize that the pre-renaissance music that survives in manuscripts only represents a small portion of actual performed music... due in part to the lack of printing press as soul_biscuit points out, but also to the novelty of music notation. It really is a peculiarity of western culture that music is WRITTEN DOWN, instead of being played from memory or improvised, largely due to the complication of developing a visual system that can adequately depict pitches and rhythms. Notational systems that developed in the middle ages were invented largely for the purpose of recording sacred music. While I certainly agree that medieval art was largely dominated by religion, the present body of surviving music may create a skewed image of the balance between sacred and secular music.<br /><br />"But I would imagine that secular music thrived even before the Enlightenment, in the inns and pubs and anywhere people gathered."<br /><br />Absolutely. The troubadours/trouvères/ minnesingers are probably the best known example of secular musicians of the Middle Ages. During the late Middle Ages through the Renaissance, written secular music became increasingly common.tjonphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07943139186720462833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-23843513391640814852010-10-08T20:44:10.460-05:002010-10-08T20:44:10.460-05:00" We romanticize the past because most of the..." We romanticize the past because most of the crud has been filtered out by disappearing from the public consciousness"<br /><br />This is why whenever any old guy says "man, movies suck nowadays" or "music was way better in my day", indeed any "good ol' days" shtick makes me want to gag.James Francescohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09712037554242942100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-12122909966623778482010-10-08T20:30:40.209-05:002010-10-08T20:30:40.209-05:00I'm so jealous that I don't live anywhere ...I'm so jealous that I don't live anywhere near Austin. I love Mozart's Mass! I'm going to hear Mozart's Requiem next weekend though. Good luck to you and I'm sure it'll be fantastic!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10454713160551767185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78928663574292532722010-10-08T20:14:25.862-05:002010-10-08T20:14:25.862-05:00How long ago did the great outpouring of secular a...How long ago did the great outpouring of secular art start? It seems to me the printing press had a lot to do with it, allowing people with less financial resources than the sectarian authorities to distribute their poetry and music and novels widely. Recording and broadcasting technology were probably vital to the spread of music. But I would imagine that secular music thrived even before the Enlightenment, in the inns and pubs and anywhere people gathered.soul_biscuithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10017109360122087908noreply@blogger.com