tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post2811532398028339285..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: What's Wrong with the Term "Spiritual"?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-69372732767101684082010-07-06T14:57:23.749-05:002010-07-06T14:57:23.749-05:00Is it an honor or offensive to someone if you call...Is it an honor or offensive to someone if you call them Poe when they are serious?Warren Grubbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13049657383495344274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-74196939536591914552010-07-06T13:25:44.098-05:002010-07-06T13:25:44.098-05:00Valu777, if you think childish playground taunts a...Valu777, if you think childish playground taunts are the way to get our attention, then it's no wonder someone may have banned you on YouTube. We prefer to talk to grown-ups and not petulant overgrown juveniles. If you have a point of view you think is worthy of considering, express it. I strongly doubt you have anything to offer that hasn't been refuted a thousand times over, but on the minute chance you may surprise us, is there something actually interesting you have to say?Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17933545393470431585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-52256237809778237142010-07-06T08:07:38.824-05:002010-07-06T08:07:38.824-05:00Hello this is valu777 from youtube why block me...Hello this is valu777 from youtube why block me are you scared of the truth ??<br /><br />are you scared of my questions ? <br /><br />are you realy free thinkers ,<br /><br />are you worried about my christian power to cast out your denmons?<br /><br />oh you might be scared of me is this the reason <br /><br />or are you going to use the troll excuse ? to hide behind <br /><br />cheersvalu777https://www.blogger.com/profile/06913739701913097812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-15024516511703844172010-06-23T22:12:33.272-05:002010-06-23T22:12:33.272-05:00one more thing! I know how to say what I was tryin...one more thing! I know how to say what I was trying to say about "supernatural" and why I find the word to be a paradox. For something to be supernatural it needs to not exist in the real world, however to refer to something as supernatural one supposes absolute certainty that this thing which one refers to is not of the real world....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-58232781444732624472010-06-21T04:21:30.149-05:002010-06-21T04:21:30.149-05:00I am the person who wrote the letter. Now that I h...I am the person who wrote the letter. Now that I have had time to think about it, I see the ambiguity with the word spiritual although whenever I myself have used the word it was with secular meaning, a mind-body thing, what ever you wanna call that, maybe the sense of wonderment, I suppose. I do think it is a shame that it has become what it has become. Maybe there is a better word to replace the word with, but we are not all scientists and we convey thoughts using these conventional words out of habit. Nobody seems to have a problem with "oh my god". I have tried to be careful lately on my use of the word spiritual ever since I started watching AE but I still understand what people imply by context when it is used. <br /><br />Now, when I was talking about the word "supernatural" I guess I didn't word my thought correctly-I will get back to you guys when I have it more composed. I see the word as a paradox but when I am more composed I will elaborate later.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-25228109775297247542010-06-20T06:09:08.902-05:002010-06-20T06:09:08.902-05:00I liked this letter a lot, because it is about som...I liked this letter a lot, because it is about something I am breaking my head over for a while now. I dislike the term spirituality or spirtual, because it is a vague ill defined term. Having said that, I do think that there have been plenty of examples throughout history and in our own time, of people getting to a trance state where their perception of everything around them is radically altered. Pretty much every mystic movement in any religion has this aspect in them. Now I am convinced there is nothing supernatural or divine about this. It is simply a way to induce a certain state of the brain that alters the perception of the world. And this state of the brain is something very interesting to me, because I belief it can have added value for an individual. The problem emerges when people add all kinds of mystical mumbo jumbo to gaining thsi ste, making it 'mysterious'and 'divine'and the usually call it spirituality. There I jump of the wagon. I know a lot of non-religious people who have said that they had a spiritual experience. This experience is almost always described in similar terms. It conveys a sense of belonging in the world, and also the value of everything natural around them. Now what I would like to see is more scientific research into this area. Not to prove God, not at all, but to de-spiritualize these experiences. I think there is nothing wrong with having waht are currently called spiritual experiences, especially since there are many established methods to getting these experiences. They are natural things, that are functions of the brain, as far as I am concerned but they might be useful things. To actually research this I think we have to move past the world spiritual and look at what actually happens. Let's put some budhists or sufi's or shamans through a CT scan of the brain, and let's see what is happening ther. We could find out nothing is happening there at all, but we could also find out that certain parts of the brain oare more active, or something like that. Now if the latter thing is the case we could start looking at these things without words like spirituality, religion or divinity polluting them, yet still experience them as a positive thing in our lives.<br /><br />I can see I went on a bit of tangent here. This is mainly because I think this is an area that we know very little of, and very little proper research goes on in these areas (lot's of holistic 'scientific' claims of course) I think this is a useful area to research, because not only would we learn more about how our brain works, but also how we can then experimet in this area individually without being sucked into any dogma or religion.<br /><br />I realize this idea might not be exactly popular on here, but it's something I think about a lot, and I think the whole knee jerk allergic reaction many atheists (including me btw) have when hearing the word spitual or spirituality is a big hindrance, because we tend to throw everything that is called that in the Theist drawer and consequently stop thinking about it. An additional problem is that a lot of what is called spirituality IS in fact religious mumbo jumbo, which then justifies our prejudices and voila it is no longer interesting for research.Fritshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10283591813641507318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-37013969644528119132010-06-19T13:59:41.527-05:002010-06-19T13:59:41.527-05:00Spirituality is one of two things
a) a synonym fo...Spirituality is one of two things<br /><br />a) a synonym for wonderment which is a good thing to have<br /><br />b) a metaphorical mask for non-believers to hide behind so they can avoid the crap that comes from not-believing.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-15817342559958301522010-06-19T09:42:33.940-05:002010-06-19T09:42:33.940-05:00@Jeremiah- The problem wit hthat argument is that ...@Jeremiah- The problem wit hthat argument is that there is a very simple and concise definition as to what "supernatural" means. "Spiritual" on the other hand is not only "loaded" as you put it, but vague and differing from person to person. I agree with MattD in that I've never heard someone who uses the term be able to also define it adequately. Thus i see know reason to use a term that serves to muddy my conceptions versus clarify them. <br /> <br />I like Sam Harris. He's probably my favorite of the 4 horsemen era of atheists. But even when he starts rambling on about "spirituality" my eyes glaze over and I want him to snap back in to lucidity. I kind of get where he is coming from and I don't necessarily have a problem with the intent or his actions in things he considers "spiritual". But when even he can not succinctly bring the meaning in to focus, I find it nothing but frustrating. <br /><br />I was at the park today with my dog and wound up staring up at the wind blowing through some very tall overlapping trees with willow junk floating all about...There was something great in experiencing this and I enjoyed it until the terrier complained about our lack of movement. Even immediately after I couldn't put in to words why it held my attention or what exactly I was thinking at the moment. That may be considered spiritual. But at the same time, when I say it was spiritual, I'm not sure it's properly descriptive. It may mean the entirely wrong thing depending on how the listener or reader defines the term. So the term itself needs further clarification and context. That is why it is sometimes best avoiding the word altogether.rrpostalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336728549010108830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-35860589398689891572010-06-18T16:27:08.842-05:002010-06-18T16:27:08.842-05:00Seems like we are missing a simple point here.
...Seems like we are missing a simple point here. <br /><br />Can someone give a definition of Spiritual that is concise and meaningful that doesn't involve the supernatural or religious?<br /><br />If people define it as MW defines it (see my earlier comment), I don't think the hosts would have an issue. The problem is, people say it doesn't mean that, and when the hosts ask them to define it, they don't seem to be able to. It sounds like they are trying to change the meaning to, as Sully said, compromise.Warren Grubbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13049657383495344274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-46999895139844578172010-06-18T15:24:02.827-05:002010-06-18T15:24:02.827-05:00To be fair when discussing the use of the word sup...To be fair when discussing the use of the word supernatural I think that the writer wasn't implying that any on the show believe in the concept of the supernatural, just pointing out that the show has no qualms about using the word in order to convey a common language concept whereas they don't avoid the word spiritual. I think the writer was keying in on the defense that is sometimes used on the show that spiritual isn't used because it is hard to define, but in your response you provided here you took more of a line where avoidance of the word is essentially because it is sort of a loaded term that would liable to be abused by believers. Sort of how a few (not all by any means) atheists will adopt a term like agnostic or humanist to describe themselves over atheist because atheist has a history of being a bit of a loaded word in our culture. <br /><br />And I can buy into that agrument, that those on the show would seek to avoid spiritual because of it being a culturally loaded word. Actually you see this sort of language correction all the time, a word will start out with a well-defined and narrow meaning, via culture it will become slowly distorted to have other less well defined connotations and then people will start using other words that are free of such connotations to describe what that word originally meant for the sake of clarity. A decent example is the word 'retarded' which originally was just used in the literal sense but over time became a sort of slur for stupidity and now you see people shy away from it's use to other less loaded terms. So I can see use moving away from a term like spiritual in that over time it has become pretty diluted to mean a lot of different things to different people rather then staying true to it's original meaning.Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06977623156609966553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-635398678771452982010-06-18T14:16:03.222-05:002010-06-18T14:16:03.222-05:00Nothing is wrong with the term "spiritual&quo...Nothing is wrong with the term "spiritual" per se, but it has been hijacked by idiots.Guillaumehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12376749604845793465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-91013943602824771442010-06-18T13:44:59.498-05:002010-06-18T13:44:59.498-05:00I think a good question is- why do atheists want t...I think a good question is- why do atheists want to use the term spiritual? The author claims that we all know what people mean since we speak english (implying we are not being honest in our argument), but a quick look in the English dictionary has two options:<br /><br />1. of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things<br />2. of or relating to religion or religious belief<br /><br />I think these are find definitions, and they are the reason I question people who claim they don't believe in souls but try to use the word. I constantly hear people trying to redefine it to suit their need, which is often to accommodate/placate a religious person, hence the definition is vague and full of contradictions as they try to expand it far beyond its value.<br /><br />It's nice to try to find some common or middle ground with someone who really is spiritual, but I prefer to honestly say something like "I don't believe in God(s), but that doesn't mean I don't have deep thoughts and considerations about our place in the universe."Warren Grubbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13049657383495344274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-61470994162453507312010-06-18T12:43:27.679-05:002010-06-18T12:43:27.679-05:00"Spiritual" is both a loaded and empty t..."Spiritual" is both a loaded and empty term even when it is well defined - if you look up its definition in MW, all but one of the definitions given are in reference to either the supernatural or religious belief. I.e. Loaded with emptiness...;)<br /><br />Other times, it's a term of retreat when the theist doesn't want to out-and-out say "believe in the god of the bible". It's more often used by new-agers who are generally still theists but with even more watered-down definitions of god like "big wide space" and rot like that.<br /><br />So to me, it's just as useless a term as "god"; it has no real descriptive value and as Tracie points out, there are better alternatives. "Woo" is a good one and there are others.<br /><br />LSlshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17901508236729383702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-15146831552432418672010-06-18T12:22:17.814-05:002010-06-18T12:22:17.814-05:00Just like how I don't see any evidence to proo...Just like how I don't see any evidence to proof religion right, it's the same for me as far as spirituality goes.ThatAtheistChickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13062439506515114055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-15502629162193333042010-06-18T11:36:42.319-05:002010-06-18T11:36:42.319-05:00When I hear people talking about being spiritual, ...When I hear people talking about being spiritual, it is usually kind of a compromise position.<br /><br />They clearly don't believe Gods are real and the Bible is true and all of that because they think it sounds silly.<br /><br />But they also know that the big bad world of being an atheist can be scary and of course the term carries negative connotations to so many people.<br /><br />This way they can have their cake (not being a lunatic creationist) and have it too (not be an atheist.)Sullyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10272557466790129869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-62765909397877900002010-06-18T09:21:02.094-05:002010-06-18T09:21:02.094-05:00In his attempt to explain why the word "spiri...In his attempt to explain why the word "spiritual" is safe to use, the writer himself used multiple definitions - AND - admitted that it has different meanings for people who believe in spirits and souls. Yet he still doesn't understand why there are problems with the word.AZ Superman01https://www.blogger.com/profile/01759724986282036957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-61643030334236782962010-06-18T08:16:00.121-05:002010-06-18T08:16:00.121-05:00The main problem with the word "Spiritual&quo...The main problem with the word "Spiritual" is that like "Natural" it is used so casually that it really has no meaning. It is usually associated with the emotions, feelings and the irrational side of human existence. Theists also use the term to indicated some connection to their god or Jesus. This makes the word a bit of a land mine for those of us who see no evidence for anything beyond the universe we can observe.<br /><br /> "It a lot of times is to do with a mind-body-nature thing." <br /><br />I have become more of a reductionist of late and take exception with the concept of mind body duality. Recent advances in our understanding of neurology have produced convincing evidence that the mind is a product of what the brain does - there is no separation. This is resisted by theists since if the mind is only and emergent property of brain chemistry - what is the soul?<br /><br />Since our bodies exist in the "natural" world we are part of nature not separated from it. The fact that it is all brain chemistry does not change a person's ability to feel the emotions of joy and wonder. The fact that it is all based on something real and measurable makes it all the more amazing.DavidCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567694912132966263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78974462687389803702010-06-18T07:12:11.390-05:002010-06-18T07:12:11.390-05:00Yes. I can only speak for myself, but I for sure h...Yes. I can only speak for myself, but I for sure have no idea what people mean when they use the term "spiritual", and this viewer's mail didn't help. Supernatural has a clear definition, and stating that it doesn't exist... Well, this viewer probably didn't think that argument through.<br />By the way: "Einstein and Hawking <i>were</i>"?<br />God, you gave me a fright.Murielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08180735566101945702noreply@blogger.com