tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post2516013835738886331..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: In which Mike demonstrates once and for all the proof that God existsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger384125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-82139439876803522802011-02-28T12:06:34.376-06:002011-02-28T12:06:34.376-06:00Oh, your user name is fine, and anonymity is commo...Oh, your user name is fine, and anonymity is common.<br /><br />I’ve done most of my reading about philosophy and how to form arguments online. Iron Chariots is good, but I also like Austin Cline’s site:<br /><br />http://atheism.about.com/<br /><br />I was fortunate to have my husband and some more philosophical friends around who were supportive of my curiosity, that did help, but when I broached the subject with other friends and family members I was met with a lot of defensiveness, and in spite of how gentle and respectful I attempted to be about it I even temporarily lost a couple of friends. For the most part the question of belief with family and friends has settled into an agreement to disagree. <br /><br />I’ve read and listened to a number of comments online and calls on The Atheist Experience from people who are unable for any number of reasons to discuss their questions about religion openly with their family. You’re not alone in that, and you are in the best position to decide what approach is best for you, and if you even want to broach the subject with your family at all. There’s no reason to expect that you’ll be able to convince anyone to open their minds to questioning their beliefs, but you can find like minded people online, and might be able to meet people through a local MeetUp group. There are also resources online with information about black/African-American freethinkers.<br /><br />I also recommend going into the archived shows of the Atheist Experience: http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/?full=1#table <br /> and listening to some of the calls that they’ve taken over the years to get a feel for the kind of experiences atheists and freethinkers have had, and some of the reactions you might expect to get from more dogmatic believers if you openly question their belief systems. Also, since it’s a live show it gives an indication of how those conversations go in real time as opposed to on a message board or in a comment section.Barbara_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16337217486956927809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-47197226207408411582011-02-27T18:38:11.252-06:002011-02-27T18:38:11.252-06:00Wow, thanks for sharing your story. I like how yo...Wow, thanks for sharing your story. I like how you went about developing the skills to explain your beliefs to the people around you. I wish that method would work for me, but you have to first have people who are willing to listen to reasoning. I come from a christian background and my entire family is christian. I'm going to engage in some stereotyping here because although it is sometimes negative, it is still accurate and true. My family is African American, so they are serious about religion, and don't believe in anything else except for christianity. Point, blank, period. My mother is 57, so that severely decreases my chances of getting through to her on top of her already established christian beliefs. I'm not afraid or anything, its just that letting everyone know would do more harm than good. I haven't figured out a way to get around this dilemma without pretending. I don't mind going to church with my family or anything because I'm not serious about my beliefs, but I want to have some kind of solution for this problem in the near future. By the way, please excuse my ridiculous user name. When I first created a blogger profile, I was just trying to see how it worked, I wasn't into blogging or anything. Even after having said that, It will probably stay the same because I would rather not use my real name.JapaneseAmericanGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395913229195708925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-13337624506252429612011-02-27T16:23:34.824-06:002011-02-27T16:23:34.824-06:00dffeoeye-
I believe in honesty and individual free...dffeoeye-<br />I believe in honesty and individual freedom and in trying to make my beliefs fit in as much as possible with reality. I guess in the case of -isms I'd go with materialist consequentialist, but my understanding of moral theories is still pretty rudimentary. I have no formal education in philosophy. My husband and quite a few friends were philosophy majors, but I really didn't pay much attention to it until after I identified as an atheist and, being fairly political and wanting to stand up and be counted, started paying closer attention to the arguments other atheists were making. Out of respect for people I loved, it was important to me to be able to discuss my unbelief with religious/spiritual friends and family in the clearest way possible, and learning some basics about how to structure arguments has been very helpful with that. It's also had the unexpected benefit of making conversations more fun and rewarding, and I'm more comfortable with jumping into conversations that I might have found intimidating a few years ago.<br /><br />I was raised in a fundamentalist Lutheran church, but with socially liberal parents who stayed with that particular church for the sake of maintaining a relationship with the more religious side of our family. I believed in the triune God and the virgin birth but thought that the ethically questionable parts of the Bible were allegorical - basically if it felt good I believed it was true, if it didn't then I thought it must just be an allegory, and in general I really didn't bother to think much at all about the beliefs or how they conflicted. A conversation with a religious family member made me realize how thoughtless I was being about the whole thing, I decided to read up on various religions to try to find one that would be a fit for me, and long story short five years later I was an atheist.Barbara_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16337217486956927809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-37459571443719511922011-02-26T23:58:43.986-06:002011-02-26T23:58:43.986-06:00I acknowledge that I have lost his argument and th...I acknowledge that I have lost his argument and that I severely lack sufficient evidence. I'm at a loss a words, but in a good way. You managed to point out numerous unsupported areas in my ideas and render them void. I honestly thought my arguments were valid or at least held some water, but after your response, I feel like the bucket was empty and that I never had a good argument to begin with. I now realize that I have to do a much better job of presenting my arguments. I'm a philosophical person by nature, but I lack the proper education in philosophy, so I did not take all of these complex concepts into consideration. The purpose of me sharing my thoughts was to test how strong my ideas really were, and I feel as I couldn't have gotten a better answer. I will study some so I can better present my arguments. Thanks for taking the time to explain everything, I really do appreciate it. I have a couple of questions and I don't take these topics seriously like most people so I hope you will feel comfortable answering them. I'm really curious. What are your beliefs? Have you received any education on philosophy? What were you taught to believe growing up, and what did you believe in as you were growing up?JapaneseAmericanGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395913229195708925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-65878247628663387422011-02-26T12:51:40.217-06:002011-02-26T12:51:40.217-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Barbara_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16337217486956927809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-62116452703180872352011-02-26T11:52:40.304-06:002011-02-26T11:52:40.304-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Barbara_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16337217486956927809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-53056080372704977222011-02-25T15:48:22.683-06:002011-02-25T15:48:22.683-06:00Yes, you did use the word random. Now, you are us...Yes, you did use the word random. Now, you are using the word coincidence - evolution is not coincidental, either. If you don't believe humans were the product of evolution, on what are you basing this conclusion? There’s a difference between brevity and clarity - words mean stuff. The statement that humans are perfect, but not literally perfect, makes no sense. It’s either one or the other. If elaboration is your aim, then please elaborate.<br /><br />What is your evidence that something planned it out from the beginning? What is your evidence that there is a soul? If you don't have any, then you are using your lack of evidence (or ignorance) of how humans evolved to justify your belief that something planned it, or that a soul exists. What is your argument for the existence of a soul?<br /><br />I'd like to make sure that you understand the argument from ignorance fallacy, so that you don't make the mistake of thinking that, when someone points out that you are engaging in that fallacy, they are saying that you yourself are an overall ignorant person. One of the definitions of ignorance is to be “lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified”. To engage in the fallacy known as the argument from ignorance is to use that lack of knowledge - in this case the specifics about the evolution of humans - as an excuse to support an unfounded assertion. This is also known as the argument from personal incredulity (think “this is so marvelous, I just can’t believe it happened without a creator”), and in the case of God claims, it’s known as the “God of the gaps” argument. <br /><br />We're all ignorant about something. As I previously stated, I am ignorant about current thinking on the development of sexual reproduction. If I were to use this ignorance as an excuse to make an unsupported claim about that development, then I would be using the argument from (my) ignorance.<br /><br />Some of the people from the show are involved in a Wiki project called Iron Chariots, and they have a page on this fallacy:<br /><br />http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Argument_from_ignorance<br /><br />as well as others on other fallacies:<br /><br />http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Category:Logical_fallacies<br /><br />The point isn't to try to insult your intelligence, it's to develop skills to make sound arguments. You might find the information both useful and interesting as you try to clarify your positions.Barbara_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16337217486956927809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-8916170283476033642011-02-25T15:10:26.619-06:002011-02-25T15:10:26.619-06:00To Barbara,
I did not say that evolution was rando...To Barbara,<br />I did not say that evolution was random. To rephrase what I said more clearly, what I was trying to say is that I don't believe humans were the product of this process as a matter of coincidence. Evolution certainly makes sense, but if its true, then my argument is that someone or something planned it out from the beginning. Sorry if I was unclear, I was trying to keep things brief. Also, I do think I was clear about the "humans being perfect, but not "literally perfect" part. Yes, I know we have flaws, but we are obviously at the top of the food chain. The human mind has extraordinary capabilities. With that said, I will disregard your comments about humans being perfect, but I will also admit that I could have defined what I meant by perfect, but as I said before, I was trying to keep things brief. I hope this clarifies some of the things I have said. Ok, I know the argument about the soul isn't strong, but its not ignorant. I don't claim that these assumptions are all true, I'm just sharing what I think so we can all elaborate on it. Thanks for the comment. :DJapaneseAmericanGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395913229195708925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-14365353025744979272011-02-25T11:36:28.424-06:002011-02-25T11:36:28.424-06:00dffeoeye - People are obviously not perfect. Why ...dffeoeye - People are obviously not perfect. Why do we have wisdom teeth if we don't need them? Why do we have appendixes? There are animals with better eyes, better agility, longer life spans, etc. In what way are people perfect? The fact that you don't see how complexity could have evolved doesn't mean there's a creator - it just means you don't understand it.<br /><br />I don't have an explanation ready of how sexual reproduction developed, but it's hard to believe that there hasn't been an attempt to explain that (and by the way, evolution is not "random"). Even if there isn't a reasonable explanation at hand, I don't see how you can justify assuming that the existence of men and women is a sign of design, based solely on your ignorance of an alternative explanation. The same thing, the problem of making an argument from ignorance, applies to your opinion that people have souls. <br /><br />If you don't have evidence of something, why do you then leap to the conclusion that a creator is the explanation?Barbara_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16337217486956927809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-25127114642126112812011-02-25T11:07:25.970-06:002011-02-25T11:07:25.970-06:00Wow. Just...wow.Wow. Just...wow.Badger3khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04008838430274720250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-5172133712124579192011-02-25T00:16:35.629-06:002011-02-25T00:16:35.629-06:00First of all, I highly respect all atheists becaus...First of all, I highly respect all atheists because they have logical reasoning for their beliefs as opposed to people of religion. I just want share some of my thoughts. I am not religious. I don't believe in the biblical God, but I do believe in a creator. Here are some reasons why:<br /><br />A) Without being literal here, humans are the perfect being. Our design is amazing. I do not believe that evolution randomly produced complex, perfect individuals such as humans. Also, to add to that point, how do we explain the significance of man and woman. Clearly, this did not just happen randomly. The creator had a clear plan in mind.<br /><br />B) This is a little out there, but I believe that it is highly possible that everyone has a soul. We are more than a blank slate because that term best defines artificial intelligence, and humans have something that computers will never have. That would be free will but I don't know where to begin this search. Nobody knew about dark matter until there were devices capable of detecting it. This isn't as comparable, but gravity is undetectable, but we know that it is there because we are aware of it at work. Put short, I believe science has yet to develop the tools to prove the existence of this other worldly property.JapaneseAmericanGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18395913229195708925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-66875992285586946142011-02-22T10:17:53.270-06:002011-02-22T10:17:53.270-06:00That was...fascinating. Watching as he suddenly sh...That was...fascinating. Watching as he suddenly shifted gears from pantheism to Christianity, seeing him stop copy-pasting and having his capitalization deteriorate as a result. I was in awe of his complete lack of self-awareness. Shame I wasn't here for the actually fun part.Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16589944841250514505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-89363356071556135972011-02-21T08:40:22.152-06:002011-02-21T08:40:22.152-06:00Dorkman said...
"No, true geniuses are the o...Dorkman said... <br />"No, true geniuses are the ones who can distil their thoughts in such a way that their utility is clear to just about anyone."<br /><br />And they are succinct too ... e=mc2 or a2+b2=c2 (2=sq.) etc.<br /><br />Mike said: <br />"In this sense, the vast majority of men are not well-enough equipped, conceptually speaking, to form perfectly rational world views and societies;"<br /><br />Finally something provable - and he has proved it - by example.gswhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00464061976742965239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-14182352798380185532011-02-21T08:11:09.095-06:002011-02-21T08:11:09.095-06:00Dorkman said...
"No, true geniuses are the o...Dorkman said... <br />"No, true geniuses are the ones who can distill their thoughts in such a way that their utility is clear to just about anyone."<br />And they are succint too ... e=mc2 or a2+b2=c2 (2=quadrat) etc.<br /><br />Mike said: <br />"In this sense, the vast majority of men are not well-enough equipped, conceptually speaking, to form perfectly rational worldviews and societies;"<br /><br />Finally something provable - and he has proved it - by example.gswhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00464061976742965239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-51787230404634924892011-02-19T09:06:04.611-06:002011-02-19T09:06:04.611-06:00Sigh...guys next time, don't feed the troll.Sigh...guys next time, don't feed the troll.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03392258829055207408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-41286982976780694492011-02-19T01:33:00.864-06:002011-02-19T01:33:00.864-06:00Well Mike, I'm new here. Ran across this threa...Well Mike, I'm new here. Ran across this thread, and thought I'd respond to a couple of things. First of all, I appreciate that you've opened up near the end of this thread and stopped copy-pasting information from other websites. It's much more rewarding to make an argument in your own words, and in a way that you understand.<br /><br />Since nobody has addressed your post about the prophecies in the bible yet, I'll just do that.<br />"<br />plz stop blocking my comments. <br /><br />in daniel 2 neb. predics 4 empires that didnt exist yet.<br />in dnaiel 12 it says there will be growth in technology and travel. <br />explain these profecies. <br />jesus born of a virgin LIKE IT SAID<br />in bethlehem LIKE IT SAID<br />preceded by a messenger JOHN THE BAPTIST LIKE IT SAID<br />rejected by his ppl LIKE IT SAId<br />pierced in the side LIKE IT SAID<br />crucified LIKE IT SAID<br />"<br />First of all, the last six of these are unsupported by anything outside of the narrative of the religion which they are intended to support. In other words, it is possible that these stories were invented after the fact, in order to fulfill the prophecies. The historical evidence for these events is noticeably lacking (the earlies biblical texts were written decades after Jesus's supposed death). <br /><br />The first two illustrate a trend that you'll notice in biblical prophecies. That is, they are vague statements that almost anyone could have made. Is it really that far-fetched to say that people will have better roads to travel on and better technology in the future? This has been a trend in human history since the prehistoric age. Better harpoons, more aerodynamic spheres, rocks to hit together to make fires, wheels - all of these were developments in technology. Empires are a similar case. They rose and fell all the time in antiquity, and one could reasonably expect the trend to continue. As for water currents, these are readily observable by anyone throwing sticks into a body of water. It doesn't take divinely inspired knowledge to discover that they exist.<br /><br />I encourage you to try to formulate an argument for yourself that makes sense to you and is consistent with basic rules of inference and with physical evidence. If you find that you can't do that, you will know that you don't have a reason to believe that a god exists.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17041955512128424822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-5404090033429694542011-02-18T12:07:29.991-06:002011-02-18T12:07:29.991-06:00If only I could travel 2000 years in the future an...If only I could travel 2000 years in the future and see if after 4000 years of NO EVIDENCE of god the various Abrahamic religious cult members FINALLY get a clue and accept they have no credibility at all.<br /><br />2000 years and counting...........michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12888157943103381869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-83936590968929413832011-02-18T10:55:59.762-06:002011-02-18T10:55:59.762-06:00As it rolls to an end, I'd just like to say th...As it rolls to an end, I'd just like to say that entertaining threads such as this make this one of the greatest blogs to read.Pombolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16735540265123793662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-72191051401375976542011-02-18T10:04:20.450-06:002011-02-18T10:04:20.450-06:00now that we all agree, by langan's theory, tha...<i>now that we all agree, by langan's theory, that god is real,</i><br /><br />Damnit. I keep having to look for my butt. I seem to have laughed it off again.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06754135739765388167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-86638973172836575492011-02-18T10:00:56.774-06:002011-02-18T10:00:56.774-06:00If you can't see anything on the "newest&...If you can't see anything on the "newest" comments page, just click on "older" once and scroll down. Nothing is missing.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06754135739765388167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-49201783176694760652011-02-18T08:38:30.049-06:002011-02-18T08:38:30.049-06:00Is that it, then? Mike just committed one fallacy ...Is that it, then? Mike just committed one fallacy after another and then quit? I was hoping for more.Peggyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09961246191668073383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-52896338660485869642011-02-18T06:05:07.464-06:002011-02-18T06:05:07.464-06:00Normally I'd hold off on proclaiming a Poe in ...Normally I'd hold off on proclaiming a Poe in pure text format, but this guy posts as if he has a checklist of the common fallacies that we've all seen, that he's using and checking off one after the other, which it seems more likely one would compile as an atheist who has argued with the religious from a bunch of different angles, than one would as a religious guy who has attempted to have a coherent (if ad hoc)set of reasons for their position. It seems more likely that one would have a single strand of what they think is airtight and foolproof argumentation, because thats all they themselves needed to be convinced. It seems unlikely that it'd come in the form of a rapid fire hodge-podge like this guy is doing.<br /><br />No arguments with Martin, though. People, not just religious people, people in general, are embarrassingly stupid, and completely genuine about it. I'm just questioning the genuineness of someone who is this embarrassingly stupid in this many completely disjointed ways of getting from Point A to Point B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-58524537687948319932011-02-18T04:34:36.869-06:002011-02-18T04:34:36.869-06:00If the bible, or the qu'ran, or the bhagavad g...If the bible, or the qu'ran, or the bhagavad gita, had any scrap of veracity to them, you think that the VERY FIRST COMMANDEMENT would be:<br />1) Wash your hands before touching food.<br /><br />But no.<br />Not a bit of "germ theory" or "germ fact".<br />The one thing that alone would have saved more of his chosen tribe (select group of filthy illiterate desired goat-shaggers here) from death and allowed them to flourish more than any single thing.<br />Yes, it would have an even greater prophylactic effect than not coveting one's neighbours cattle, or even hacking off the end of half (or more) of the populations genitalia.<br /><br />Q: Why didn't your gods know this?<br />A: Because they are imaginary.Michael Kingsford Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15610344772081162910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-30356104007430475142011-02-18T01:49:57.377-06:002011-02-18T01:49:57.377-06:00Martin, I have to agree. This is like some bad ep...Martin, I have to agree. This is like some bad episode of The Twilight Zone, or any day in an average youtube anti-atheist video's comment section. <br /><br />Before I started conversing with militant morons on the internet, my experience with them was limited to the very rare preacher on my college campus. The more I wade into the vast oceans that are poor theistic arguments, logical fallacies that contort the brain, and musings from people that read more like the ramblings of a 5th century Glenn Beck on LSD than they do the coherent thoughts of people with access to google, the more I wonder how we can hope to survive as a species.<br /><br />The really scary thing is, they give licenses to people like this; and they vote. Damnit, now I need a strong drink.Apostuloushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15882838931979164053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-72025165849465772502011-02-18T01:27:26.593-06:002011-02-18T01:27:26.593-06:00Pauk: Yeah, if I'd had any idea this shit woul...Pauk: Yeah, if I'd had any idea this shit would run to well over 400 comments, I'd have nipped it in the bud. It stopped being amusing ages ago. You simply cannot argue with a mind as completely damaged as Mike's.It's time for this to end. Russell, leave his drivel in the spam filter from here on out, and let's move on with our lives.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17933545393470431585noreply@blogger.com