tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post8552420666606504985..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: Racial composition does not imply a group's ideologyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-67631716766033291792010-11-27T14:16:56.203-06:002010-11-27T14:16:56.203-06:00I can agree with you on some of the 9-11 claims an...I can agree with you on some of the 9-11 claims and conspiracies regarding Zeitgeist parts 2, 3 & addendum but, I cannot agree with hardly anything you've said about ZG part 1. I've done my own research long before the Zeitgeist movie was ever heard of and your claims are wrong - embarrassingly wrong and you're embarrassing all atheists by repeating the nonsense I've seen in your youtube video #634. The comments there by 'Hercules2345' proved that.<br /><br />I notice that most here at the atheist experience consistently commit the fallacy of 'guilt by association' by conflating part 1/Acharya S with everything else. Acharya S had nothing to do with parts 2 or 3. She has consistently substantiated part 1 when it has come from her own work and I've yet to see anyone here go to her website or videos or forum or read any of her books or even make any attempt to contact her at all. So, the anti-Acharya S position here is about as intellectually dishonest as it gets. As an atheist, I find your website & videos regarding ZG1 & Acharya S a monumental disappointment that isn't any better than fundy Xians. Take that as constructive criticism. <br /><br />If you have any interest in being honest invite her on your show via the phone or something but, it would be wise if you knew her work first or you will look like a dumb-ass. Or do a show on her mythicist position. <br /><br />Read Acharya's Frequently Asked Questions at her Freethought Nation forum. <br /><br />Read this FAQ & you'll see why atheists should not be SMEARING her: "Do atheists disagree with Acharya's basic premise?"<br /><br />Search for the "Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence" thread and the post "The New ZEITGEIST Part 1 Sourcebook (2010)"<br /><br />CiaoVincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02571004784757870370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-48860359674988146462010-02-21T23:29:31.723-06:002010-02-21T23:29:31.723-06:00@ Godlessons, yeah but when they're head speak...@ Godlessons, yeah but when they're head speakers....<br /><br />@Hawkmom (the Slayer): I'm sort of in the boat where I'd have politic/ideals that might be 'libertarian' but I am not touch the label due to certain people taking a crap all over it. <br /><br />On the taking piss out of the government, part of the problem is due to how our system grew. WE have what I can only call 'evolutionary baggage' from our past as a series of vaguely associated colonies. The little quirks that grew from this severely hold back our efficiency. But ALL systems have that, in polysci class they referred to it as 'path dependency'. Reform that moves forward rather than trying to undo the past is needed over voting in new blokes.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-54527847378954285212010-02-21T16:35:05.742-06:002010-02-21T16:35:05.742-06:00Very nice. I would add that even though you find ...Very nice. I would add that even though you find racists in the teaparty movement, it is wrong headed to think that just because there are racists that it is a racist movement. You find racists in the Democrat party, as well as the Republican party. Does that make either party racist? What makes a movement racist is the goals of the movement.<br /><br />You're going to find assholes in any group of people you find. The presence of assholes doesn't make everyone an asshole.Godlessonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716096268454810993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-50664141705629471862010-02-20T15:07:21.927-06:002010-02-20T15:07:21.927-06:00Black atheist, here! *raises ebony fist*
We'r...Black atheist, here! *raises ebony fist*<br /><br />We're rare and usually closeted, since black American culture is typically centered around the church. Those of us who are "church homeless" are viewed as confused, and I've even been accused of hating black people and betraying my race. True story.<br /><br />I'm also a *real* libertarian. This tea party nonsense is a turnoff for me, because it seems less about small government, liberty, and the Constitution and more about getting together to bash Obama under the guise of rightful dissent. This nationwide tea tantrum is about a decade overdue. <br /><br />I'm all about taking the piss out of Washington, but this ain't the way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-61541809092876458422010-02-19T13:09:10.169-06:002010-02-19T13:09:10.169-06:00On the topic of 'liberal' show head desk m...On the topic of 'liberal' show head desk moments.<br /><br />NPR on 12:00 today "WHY CHIROPRACTIC IS BEING USED TO TREAT EVERYTHING FROM HEADACHES TO HEART CONDITIONS!"<br /><br />Oh joy...Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-38666282851217283142010-02-19T13:03:03.037-06:002010-02-19T13:03:03.037-06:00Also the "anyone can call someone a rapist&qu...Also the "anyone can call someone a rapist" reminded me.<br /><br />When IS Glen Beck going to deny the rumors that he killed and raped a girl in 1990?Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-48497031831529508462010-02-19T13:02:02.650-06:002010-02-19T13:02:02.650-06:00@ Jasel
Yup, you're right. My point though w...@ Jasel<br /><br />Yup, you're right. My point though was that while honest people have a sort of resistance to calling subtle racism or endemic racism when they see it (or in the case of the tea baggers, Whisky Tango Foxtrot out in the open racism bubbling to the surface) there is a concentrated movement to make the word meaningless.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-42702996016854033002010-02-19T12:09:08.117-06:002010-02-19T12:09:08.117-06:00@Ing.
I do not know who the racist is. Who are y...@Ing. <br /><br />I do not know who the racist is. Who are you referring to? I do believe that the conservative movement is socially darwinistic, and that their policies are wrong, but I think the biggest hate they have is toward liberals. Had Barack Obama been a Republican, I feel that the vast majority of these people would be at home talking about how great a president he is and patting themselves on the back for being "the party of Lincoln".<br /><br />Part of my disagreement, here, is that much of the argument I have seen has centered around either "they favor policies that are not in the best interests of African-Americans, therefore, they are racist", or "they're racist because they hate a black president who is a former law-school professor from a big city, is very liberal and who has spent time in a foreign country". (Can you be sure which part of that sentence they hate?)<br /><br />You could very well be right, but I haven't seen it, yet. I have seen the media showing only the dumbest and most extreme members of this group (which is how they report on every group).Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299046445235601258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-28415730450287188432010-02-19T08:30:28.950-06:002010-02-19T08:30:28.950-06:00@Ing
Anyone can label someone a racist. Just like...@Ing<br /><br />Anyone can label someone a racist. Just like anyone can label someone a rapist. Just because the accusation in some cases are false or misleading, doesn't mean all accusations should be written off.<br /><br />There is a plethora of evidence to back up what KO said during his special comment. The same cannot be said for Beck's comments about Obama having a "deep-seeded hatred of white people" or Limbaugh claiming that a fight over a seat on a school bus was motivated by racism.<br /><br />Also you aren't going to ever see those two calling out or acknowledging racism directed at minorities. They're simply playing up to their audience. The same argument can be made of KO I imagine, but like I said there is MUCH more evidence to back up his claim which is more than you can say for RL or GB.Jaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935185040267983435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-32718242058654742252010-02-18T23:54:31.010-06:002010-02-18T23:54:31.010-06:00@ Jaesel
I disagree. People like Limbaugh and Be...@ Jaesel<br /><br />I disagree. People like Limbaugh and Beck are all too ready to label people as racist. They're ignorant of what the word means and are actively trying to dumb it down to be meaningless, but gosh darn it they're calling people on it!<br /><br /><br />On the teabagger question I thought I'd just throw it in that my school is the proud alma matta of one of the Acorn Undercover Agents...specifically one of the ones that got caught trying to bug a federal building. He was the founder of the school's local conservative rag. In it they frequently accused people of being racist (mainly any black person who spoke out against racial problems...cause you know talking about it is racist to white people), and published an election day issue after Obama's election showing the 4 horsemen with the title "IS THE END NEAR!?". I don't know about you but I'm very proud to learn how that guy turned out. <br /><br />That's sort of the problem I have with conservationism (and the same problem I have with Christianity)...those really into it on the far right are what i'd call evil or in some cases psychotically evil (No offense George). It's those who aren't very right that I think have decent points and are reasonable. <br /><br /> The far left elements can be equally polarizing and stupid but due to their sort of dovish and accepting nature the most many of them due is annoy me with woo.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-28608348651734028162010-02-18T21:58:16.460-06:002010-02-18T21:58:16.460-06:00http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100219/ap_on_re_us/us...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100219/ap_on_re_us/us_tea_party_hang_senator<br /><br />More evidence of tea bagger crazy.<br /><br />step 1) say something stupid<br />step 2) Lie about saying it<br />step 3) Insist 'it's not what you think'<br />step 4) profitInghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-66309646936307298752010-02-18T21:40:35.378-06:002010-02-18T21:40:35.378-06:00Personally I think the dynamics of race is focused...Personally I think the dynamics of race is focused too much on black and white. While I understand where Russel is coming from you would think that millions of people from an ideological perspective would have at least SOME diversity. To me it's not even just a white/black thing. You don't see any Latinos, Asians, Indians, Middle Easterners, Native Americans, immigrants, etc. It's pretty much exclusively white. While I can understand people not wanting to label the movement as racist, I wish people weren't so quick to write it off as some type of ambiguous coincidence that can't be examined through a racial lens.<br /><br />To me it seems like the elephant in the room people want to ignore or write off. KO probably could have expressed his thoughts in a more rational manner but I really don't think his reasoning was that far off the mark. It kind of reminds me back in 2008 when you saw the Democratic National Convention and it was just swarming with diversity. Then you saw the Republican National Convention and trying to pick out a minority was like trying to find Waldo. And pretty much NO ONE wanted to talk about it. I think I heard Chris Matthews mention it once briefly but that was it.<br /><br />These days racism is so subtle and covert that it seems people are more willing to give the benefit of the doubt more often than not when it comes to accusations of racism. Despite many of the blatant inequalities that occur in this country along racial lines. Although I suppose historically speaking that's always been the case. I just find it disheartening and sometimes extremely irritating how when an accusation of racism is made, even in some of the most blatant occurrences, there isn't nearly as much vitriol directed at the repeat defenders and apologists of such behavior as their is directed at the people who are willing to call it out. And that goes for racists and anti-racists as well.<br /><br />It's a subject that makes people uncomfortable to begin with, and even the most well intentioned individuals I believe are more inclined to try to ignore/downplay/write off such occurrences than to actually address them, eloquently or not so eloquently. <br /><br />So while I can understand why some people might disagree with KO's position, I still respect the man for taking on the subject no matter how ham fisted he was when doing it. Because actually talking about it is more than most people in this country are willing to do IMO.Jaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935185040267983435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1203772698508272192010-02-18T21:14:09.408-06:002010-02-18T21:14:09.408-06:00"And to this I respond with; why aren't t..."And to this I respond with; why aren't there any nuclear power supporters at the liberal rallies?"<br /><br />Have we entered a tautology? I'm into ecological causes and I am in favor of the high tech route. The problem i've seen is most of the lefties into the 'cause' want to use herbs as medicine and tree moss as fuel.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-24991828113093734202010-02-18T20:03:07.849-06:002010-02-18T20:03:07.849-06:00I don't watch Keith Olbermann, but I found you...I don't watch Keith Olbermann, but I found your article interesting. I'm black, an atheist, and a woman, BTW. Those blatantly racist tea party signs you showed made me lol, though. I guess there aren't too many outspoken black atheists because in some ways, we already get enough shit just for being black. When you add atheism to the mix, it gets worse for some of us.ThatAtheistChickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13062439506515114055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-50649587374260369622010-02-18T18:35:50.665-06:002010-02-18T18:35:50.665-06:00Kazim: "and I'm pretty sure I'm not a...Kazim: "and I'm pretty sure I'm not accidentally revealing any new information"<br /><br />Don has already pre-empted me, but I was going to say - didn't Matt 'out' him by mentioning this in the pre-show, over UStream, just moments before that show was broadcast?<br /><br />I remember him mentioning to Don that some people has been wondering who the other gay person was.Pombolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16735540265123793662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-51228183220098565102010-02-18T15:47:08.490-06:002010-02-18T15:47:08.490-06:00@Ing "*face palm on the nuclear thing* Good l...@Ing "*face palm on the nuclear thing* Good lord, Liberals...why is this hard to understand. "<br /><br />And to this I respond with; why aren't there any nuclear power supporters at the liberal rallies?JThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08881036419280903737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-81748379136313507222010-02-18T14:45:07.591-06:002010-02-18T14:45:07.591-06:00@ Thomas
WEll they had a racist talk along side S...@ Thomas<br /><br />WEll they had a racist talk along side Sarah Palin and openly use racist buzz/code words in his speech. Seriously...<br /><br />Oh and their connection to the "Birthers"<br /><br />Yes...there's some race issues there. Not all, some are just morons who follow Glen Beck's crocodile tears.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-86189989652709035982010-02-18T14:37:02.186-06:002010-02-18T14:37:02.186-06:00Oooh. It looks like I've been outed.
I haven...Oooh. It looks like I've been outed.<br /><br />I haven't been open with that fact (or a couple of others about me) on the show because I think they're more of a distraction than a help to the topic of atheism. I'd rather people focus on what I'm saying than who I am or my other attributes.<br /><br />BTW, I'm far from closeted in my real life. I think that's why Russell was comfortable dropping the name. I was running a gay and lesbian student group at my university over 20 years ago--back when doing such a thing wasn't so easy. Read my testimonial on the ACA web site for some insights in to how being gay led be to be an atheist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-59126713627630662772010-02-18T14:35:16.247-06:002010-02-18T14:35:16.247-06:00"I think the problem is that both of those st...<i>"I think the problem is that both of those statements from your first comment could be correct. There probably should be more Asians or women in British Parliament, if all things were equal."</i><br /><br />a)All things aren't equal. Both Males and Females tend to be more likely to pursue some careers than others. Maybe the same can be said for different ethnicities.<br /><br />b)To honestly suggest that there "probably should" be more Asians or women in British Parliament, you need have a decent idea of how many women or Asians wish to become MPs, and you also need to be able to measure to some degree their suitability for the role. Until you can do that reliably, you cannot present any logical argument which starts with "there are only so many x in parliament" and concludes with "therefore x are being discriminated against".<br /><br /><i>"There should also be exactly the people that deserve to be there. The problem is that one might expect those two things to be the same."</i> <br /><br />Only if you were to look at things simplistically. You might also expect 1000 coin tosses to come up with exactly 500 heads. But this will rarely be so.<br /><br /><i>"The complicated bit is that we don't know why they're not, and people don't have good ways of addressing those issues."</i><br /><br />Indeed. Which is why positive discrimination is such a bad thing. After all, it is quite possible that even though the numbers are seemingly low for Asians and women, that Caucasian men are still being discriminated against in the guise of political correctness, and the numbers for these in Parliament should be even higher.A-Astrologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08356830004231632087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-20810747582974814052010-02-18T13:48:27.069-06:002010-02-18T13:48:27.069-06:00I'm about as far to "the left" as it...I'm about as far to "the left" as it's possible to be, and generally, I love Keith. He's third only to Stewart and Colbert at throwing right-wing hypocrites' (redundant) own words back in their faces. But there's no denying that Keith is weirdly hyper-sensitive about racial stuff. I remember the uproar about that <a href="http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/chimp-stimulus-cartoon-raises-racism-concerns/" rel="nofollow">political cartoon</a> that, I'm sorry, I just don't think was racially-motivated. I think the cartoonist was mocking the stimulus bill as being unintelligent as though simply produced by a chimp banging a keyboard, and failed to make the extra connections that Olbermann and Jesse Jackson and all the other talking heads were shrilling about and insisting that he MUST have known. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor" rel="nofollow">Hanlon's Razor</a>, guys. <br /><br />Like you say, I think there are perfectly good reasons to conclude that the tea party movement is xenophobic in general, and largely racist as a subset of that, but the composition of the movement is not necessarily the best of it. <br /><br />Still, "taxpayer = niggar" can't be helping to attract non-whites, can it?Dorkmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13927199693571387920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-43080267124082729882010-02-18T12:12:35.200-06:002010-02-18T12:12:35.200-06:00Every time the right-wing media did a story about ...Every time the right-wing media did a story about an anti-war protest during the Bush administration, there were pictures of vacuous kids holding up "Bush is Hitler" signs and generally making the entire movement look immature and wacko.<br /><br />Now, in the stories about the teabaggers, you see quite a bit of craziness here as well. And, living in a red state, I have been exposed to many sane tea baggers.<br /><br />My question is, has there been any real evidence that the teabaggers are more likely to be racist, or to cling to batshit crazy ideas?<br /><br />I'm not defending them, but I honestly have not seen any evidence for anything more than the "f--- you! It's every man for his self" mentality.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299046445235601258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-15615264052367063732010-02-18T11:06:09.580-06:002010-02-18T11:06:09.580-06:00Kyle,
Obviously I listen to Keith regularly, and ...Kyle,<br /><br />Obviously I listen to Keith regularly, and no I wasn't saying that this was his only argument. In fact, I heard all kinds of info about the actual evidence for the tea partiers being racist FROM either Keith or Rachel. Nevertheless, quoting Guillaume for truth: "Being right on most things does not excuse being wrong on one thing."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-67307612172110233712010-02-18T10:39:52.616-06:002010-02-18T10:39:52.616-06:00One thing I love about Russell is his exceptional ...One thing I love about Russell is his exceptional commitment to intellectual integrity. Pointing out this sort of things is hard for some people. Often when we agree with somebody we tend no to criticize his arguments as it could weaken our position. Is hard for me, for example, to refute stupid atheist arguments. I try to do it anyway.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07982409667756307764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-32747184450925102022010-02-18T10:38:27.992-06:002010-02-18T10:38:27.992-06:00So... how come there aren't more black people ...So... how come there aren't more black people in the tea party groups? Why aren't there more women in CS? Why aren't there more black people who espouse atheism? I think those questions are worth addressing. Immediately jumping to racism on the part of the parties involved is definitely a stretch, but I don't think it hurts to consider those types of factors. <br /><br />I've never watched Olbermann, so I think I'm missing a few things. ^_^<br /><br />Just because observation shows that a particular proportion of different groups exist in a given area doesn't mean that there isn't sexism or racism at play somewhere. It can certainly be true that everyone you work with is male, that the observation is not sexist and a fact (although I'm not quite sure how it's statistical), and that you and they are not sexist. It can also be true that sexism occurs elsewhere so that those particular results could still be based on sexism.<br /><br />If you're saying that Olbermann is making a faulty post hoc/third cause argument about a complex subject that probably involves a significant number of factors, including cultural and social dimensions, then I agree with that (based on the information here). <br /><br />I think that the argument that sexism in CS means that "the entire practice must espouse some core values that hates and derides women" is a straw man, though. I don't believe that sexism or accusations of sexism are necessarily that blatant. There very well may be sexist aspects to the lack of females in CS and those aspects would probably be very hard to find and very hard to address (and probably occur elsewhere). What I'm not clear on is whether you're saying that the claim is the type of argument that Olbermann is making (particularly the sexism=blatant discrimination part) or if you're saying that. ^_^<br /><br />I can also say that the group he questions certainly has racist elements- even from the pictures that you displayed (which I would categorize as blatant rather than latent :P)- and that those racist elements probably have something to do with the lack of black people associating with the tea party.<br /><br />A-Astrologist, I think the problem is that both of those statements from your first comment could be correct. There probably should be more Asians or women in British Parliament, if all things were equal. There should also be exactly the people that deserve to be there. The problem is that one might expect those two things to be the same. The complicated bit is that we don't know why they're not, and people don't have good ways of addressing those issues.<br /><br />I think the ACA has done a pretty good job in addressing some of these issues with regards to atheism, when it's come up.Carlos O.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07701270322375313745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-63191798277447402722010-02-18T09:50:44.945-06:002010-02-18T09:50:44.945-06:00Kazim I'm sure you're aware that Monday...Kazim I'm sure you're aware that Monday's "Special Comment" wasn't the only time KO has touched on the subject of racism @ the Tea Parties.<br /><br />Although that's the only real point he made the other night, I don't think it's accurate to state that KO's argument is simply "The Tea Parties are disproportionally white, and are, therefore, racist" and nothing more.<br /><br />Have you heard of Tim Wise? The article "Racism, Right-Wing Rage and the Politics of White Nostalgia" I link below is a several months old, but I think clarifies the issue quite a bit:<br /><br />http://www.timwise.org/<br /><br />P.S., I'm not sure if my link takes you straight to the article, but it's there and should be easy to find.Kyle Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04569432667084294505noreply@blogger.com