tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post838964960323498792..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: Another friggin' post on the Transcendental Argument :)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78467979650740515982009-03-08T14:04:00.000-05:002009-03-08T14:04:00.000-05:00You resort to the argument from evil, which has be...<I>You resort to the argument from evil, which has been answered repeatedly from many sides.</I><BR/><BR/>Um, that's not the argument from evil, dude. If you're going to try to dismiss an argument by NAMING it, you might want to brush up on what the arguments you named mean.<BR/><BR/>The argument from evil is an effort to prove that an omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent God can't exist by pointing out that there wouldn't be evil in a world where such a god lives.<BR/><BR/>What I said is a lot more modest. When I asked Dan how he knows the mind of God, he said "personal revelation." That's a terrible substitute for evidence, since it's the same authority by which suicide bombers know the mind of THEIR god. It's useless. Without some other standard besides "because I said so" you might as well tell me that god orders you to dress up in a chicken suit and yodel songs from "South Park: The Movie." Backwards.<BR/><BR/><I>I assume no such thing. Something must have always been there, or we would have nothing here now.</I><BR/><BR/>First, unsupported assertion; second, if it's true, no grounds on which to assume that the "something" is in any way god-like, has any mind to follow, or indeed any mind at all.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-86019621227481810202009-03-07T10:54:00.000-06:002009-03-07T10:54:00.000-06:00Kazim, “So you just assume a god? So you use the i...Kazim, <BR/>“So you just assume a god? So you use the idea of without knowing why it's even there or where it comes from? You assume it has always been there?”<BR/><BR/>I assume no such thing. Something must have always been there, or we would have nothing here now.<BR/><BR/>“…it absolves you of the responsibility of proving that your revelations are correct.”<BR/><BR/>The proof has been given. Over and over. Ad infinitum, ad nausium.<BR/><BR/>You resort to the argument from evil, which has been answered repeatedly from many sides. That arguement assumes the existence of evil and that God wuld not have a reason for the evil we find. You can't explain the first one, and you can't claim to knwo the second.J. K. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02329537522697826005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-41669261609336631582009-03-07T10:49:00.000-06:002009-03-07T10:49:00.000-06:00The Everything Else Atheist said...“…you are just ...The Everything Else Atheist said...<BR/><BR/>“…you are just pushing back the problem. What if god had decided at the very beginning that "a" = "not a". That a rock was a tree? That 2+2=5? Could it have been? It wasn't a change of heart.”<BR/>God would not have decided a different way.<BR/><BR/>“… How are you so certain you know the mind of god?...”<BR/>Because He said so in His Word, The Bible. <BR/><BR/>“…How do you know god's telling the truth? "because god says it'd never lie" is not a very good reason…”<BR/><BR/>Because God is the only possible explaination for the moral absolute that we should not lie.<BR/><BR/>“…How do you know that it was god telling you that? How do you know it wasn't the devil tricking you?”<BR/>Fair question. Please read “The Historical Reliability of the New Testament” by Blomberg. Here’s a great place to start: http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.786347/<BR/><BR/>“If it was god telling you that he never changes his mind, then I guess his powers are limited? After all, if he does change his mind he contradicted himself, so it has to limit itself forever in the future.”<BR/>His powers are limited. By His own choice. He will not choose to do anything that He does not want to do, and He cannot do anything that is logically impossible because His mind does not work in any other way. Omnipotence is that God can do anything power can do, not that God can do anything.<BR/><BR/>“…Sure, it could be god revealing a few tidbits of how his mind works…”<BR/>He has left us enough to leave you without excuse for not believing. Any reasonable person would.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Dan +†+, Truthseeker,<BR/>It’s really good to have some friends around here. Thanks!<BR/><BR/>By the way, I don’t wear pink skirts, and I’m not the one artfully dodging questions. There is no epistemological foundation from which you can even ask your questions, so at this point, I decline to answer them.J. K. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02329537522697826005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-24816845816115440262009-03-07T08:43:00.000-06:002009-03-07T08:43:00.000-06:00So you just assume a god? So you use the idea of ...So you just assume a god? So you use the idea of without knowing why it's even there or where it comes from? You assume it has always been there? A being that we cannot account for?<BR/><BR/>You DON'T actually understand anything. You pretend that this thing you made up has to exist, even though there's no evidence that it is there (whereas obviously logic does "exist" in whatever capacity that means) and if it did exist, it would be infinitely more unexplainable than the questions you're trying to solve.<BR/><BR/>You know the mind of God through "personal revelations." How convenient! It means it's "true for you" in your own mind and it absolves you of the responsibility <BR/>of proving that your revelations are correct.<BR/><BR/>Same as everyone who ever flew a plane into a building because God wanted him to, or drowned her kids because the voices in her head said so. Glad you're so sure of yourself.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-61207685284057694212009-03-06T17:20:00.000-06:002009-03-06T17:20:00.000-06:00Truthseeker just said:"TAG asks the question how c...Truthseeker just said:<BR/><BR/>"TAG asks the question how could you have laws of logic at all from an atheist worldview. Now I don't deny that some have given answers, I just think that within the Christian worldview they are not only accounted for but make the most sense, or comport with the reality we claim exist."<BR/><BR/>Amen, well said.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-11727921740522078902009-03-06T17:17:00.000-06:002009-03-06T17:17:00.000-06:00Kazim,Whether or not it's theoretically POSSIBLE t...Kazim,<BR/><BR/><I>Whether or not it's theoretically POSSIBLE to know something doesn't answer the question of how YOU know it.</I><BR/><BR/>So you just assume logic? So you use it without knowing why it's even there or where it comes from? You assume it has always been there? A tool that you cannot account for? Great we are through then, God exists.<BR/><BR/>Christianity provides the preconditions of intelligibility for man's experience and reasoning. If Christianity were not true, Atheists could not prove or understand anything.<BR/><BR/><I>So, how are you so certain you know the mind of god? </I><BR/><BR/>God revelations. God has revealed many things to us (Which, if you haven’t gathered, includes me – and you for that matter) i.e. That He exists, that murder is bad, that love is good, that we were created in His image, that Jesus Christ is His Son, that He controls the universe. etc. etc.<BR/><BR/>So maybe you can answer then. Do you admit that it is possible that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal some things to us, such that we can be certain of them?D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-23738322148409650212009-03-06T15:41:00.000-06:002009-03-06T15:41:00.000-06:00Dan, you're a master of dodging questions. Whethe...Dan, you're a master of dodging questions. Whether or not it's theoretically POSSIBLE to know something doesn't answer the question of how YOU know it.<BR/><BR/>So, how are you so certain you know the mind of god?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-85929089405634519722009-03-06T15:23:00.000-06:002009-03-06T15:23:00.000-06:00Okay, a few questions that you might want to answe...Okay, a few questions that you might want to answer. <BR/><BR/>1. How do you know god's telling the truth? "because god says it'd never lie" is not a very good reason. If you buy into that, I've got a few things I could sell you.<BR/><BR/>2. How do you know that it was god telling you that? How do you know it wasn't the devil tricking you?<BR/><BR/>3. If it was god telling you that he never changes his mind, then I guess his powers are limited? After all, if he does change his mind he contradicted himself, so it has to limit itself forever in the future.<BR/><BR/>Sure, it could be god revealing a few tidbits of how his mind works (but not new, unknown scientific advancements or future events, or anything remotely useful, that might be <I>too</I> revealing) that happen to coexist exactly with the idea of god that random, scattered individuals have. But is it likely? I'd say about as likely a leprechaun blowing me a kiss.The Everything Else Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07093271058217498246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-46883215462466439202009-03-06T13:33:00.000-06:002009-03-06T13:33:00.000-06:00EEA,How are you so certain you know the mind of go...EEA,<BR/><BR/><I>How are you so certain you know the mind of god? </I><BR/><BR/>Do you admit that it is possible that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal some things to us, such that we can be certain of them?D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-20000306643188512722009-03-05T20:33:00.000-06:002009-03-05T20:33:00.000-06:00JK Jones, you are just pushing back the problem. ...JK Jones, you are just pushing back the problem. What if god had decided <I>at the very beginning</I> that "a" = "not a". That a rock was a tree? That 2+2=5? Could it have been? It wasn't a change of heart.<BR/><BR/>Although, I do have to say a bit presumptuous on your part to say that you know for a fact god would never change his mind. How are you so certain you know the mind of god? He told you he'd never change his mind? What if he wants to, after he told you?The Everything Else Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07093271058217498246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-40123893520892774872009-03-01T10:34:00.000-06:002009-03-01T10:34:00.000-06:00Russ, I thought you guys did well. I wouldn't be ...Russ, I thought you guys did well. I wouldn't be surprised if you picked up a few viewers/listeners to replace the fair-weather few that took to their heels.<BR/><BR/>I would, nonetheless, suggest that if your opponent is working from a script there is no real threat in letting them get it all out. That being said, I absolutely loved seeing this whiny, little windbag get his pretty pink skirt snagged in the brier patch of unrelenting scrutiny.<BR/><BR/>Keep it up!<BR/><BR/>JackJack Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08416110713725623701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-75475177509704132632009-02-28T13:02:00.000-06:002009-02-28T13:02:00.000-06:00For some reason, not doubt known only to Google, I...For some reason, not doubt known only to Google, I was not allowed the option of subscribing to the comments on this post. <BR/><BR/>This comment is just to start that subscription.J. K. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02329537522697826005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-66201495403509368242009-02-28T13:01:00.000-06:002009-02-28T13:01:00.000-06:00Can God change His mind?That is not the question.T...Can God change His mind?<BR/><BR/>That is not the question.<BR/><BR/>The question is: why would He?<BR/><BR/>God's basic desires are consistent. God does not do what He does not want to do. God wants to remain consitent, so He does.J. K. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02329537522697826005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-74573789252159785392009-02-26T17:00:00.000-06:002009-02-26T17:00:00.000-06:00There are so, so many things wrong with your posts...There are so, so many things wrong with your posts 3-Crosses that it's like it was fired out of a shotgun of stupidity.<BR/><BR/>God created evil so that we could see how good he is? A bit like saying a husband beats his wife so she can appreciate him when he takes her out to dinner.<BR/><BR/>And bacteria's DNA changed magically to attack humans after a fictional (some say parable) of two people messing up? Did the bacteria change or are we back to God the abusive you-will-do-what-I-say husband?<BR/><BR/>But the biggest, most grievous bit is your claim that love cannot exist without a soul. (Or more accurately, I think the argument is I don't understand how love works, so I'm going to guess soul). There are so, so many problems with dualism, I've <A HREF="http://everythingelseatheism.blogspot.com/2009/02/challenge-to-dualists.html" REL="nofollow">lined them out</A>. Good luck sorting through all those problems.The Everything Else Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07093271058217498246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-81959546029805867782009-02-25T22:58:00.000-06:002009-02-25T22:58:00.000-06:00EEA,I liked what one Atheist called me, "Dan with ...EEA,<BR/><BR/>I liked what one Atheist called me, "Dan with instruments of torture after his name,"<BR/><BR/><I>Why is logic special?</I><BR/><BR/>Like God, thoughts are immaterial, emotions are immaterial, the mind is immaterial, none of them can be seen or observed, the lover experiencing the feelings of love to his loved one, they cannot be proven by science, only the lover can know that feeling that they are experiencing.<BR/><BR/>They are all immaterial just like the laws of logic, yet we do not question their existence just because we do not see them.<BR/><BR/><I> Are angels pulling you down to keep you on the earth? </I> Or is it push? :)<BR/><BR/>Yes, exactly! God has created everything in existence - logic, morality, atoms, gravity - everything!<BR/><BR/>Even evil? <A HREF="http://debunkingatheists.blogspot.com/2008/08/whats-purpose-of-evil.html" REL="nofollow">YES</A><BR/><BR/>Even ebola? Even babies born with spina bifida? <A HREF="http://debunkingatheists.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-disease-and-suffering.html" REL="nofollow">YES</A><BR/><BR/>Even atheists? No, Satan created those :)D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-86328401595444455182009-02-25T21:11:00.000-06:002009-02-25T21:11:00.000-06:00@ Three-crosses DanLet me get the argument straigh...@ Three-crosses Dan<BR/><BR/>Let me get the argument straight: if logic exists, then god exists because god made logic.<BR/><BR/>Why is logic special? What about gravity? If gravity exists, does that mean god exist? Is god making things intelligently fall? Are angels pulling you down to keep you on the earth? How about rocks? Does god say, "rock, I'm telling you to be a rock so you better stay a rock!". Or how about morality? Does god say, "raping is only immoral because I say it is, otherwise it would be fine!" <BR/><BR/>Are you willing to admit there things in the universe that aren't dependent on god to have created them or maintain them? If there are things in the universe that are not depended on god, why is logic special? It seems your position must be arguing that by default, if anything exists, it means a god must have created it. <BR/><BR/>I anticipate you might foolishly say, "yes, exactly! God has created everything in existence - <A HREF="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html" REL="nofollow">logic</A>, <A HREF="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html" REL="nofollow">morality</A>, atoms, <A HREF="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html" REL="nofollow">gravity</A> - everything!"<BR/><BR/>Even evil? Even ebola? Even babies born with spina bifida? Even the rest of the universe that has no purpose because his creations cannot reach or see it? Even atheists? Even starvation?The Everything Else Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07093271058217498246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-53148963772239490612009-02-25T20:52:00.000-06:002009-02-25T20:52:00.000-06:00Lovely. I take the blog off moderation, and quick ...Lovely. I take the blog off moderation, and quick as a wink, that congenital idiot Dan Marvin is back with his canned idiocy.<BR/><BR/>If Dan is admitting he's stupid enough that he couldn't even know that 2+2=4 without his God helping him count on his fingers, that's his lookout. I don't see why we need to be bothered by it.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17933545393470431585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-79733715691789416912009-02-25T19:38:00.000-06:002009-02-25T19:38:00.000-06:00Dan, I'm not going through your script with you. ...Dan, I'm not going through your script with you. Learn philosophy on your own time.<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EpistemologyAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-64971518468988438122009-02-25T18:30:00.000-06:002009-02-25T18:30:00.000-06:00Kazim, It definitely and absolutely is 4.Great! So...Kazim,<BR/> <BR/><I>It definitely and absolutely is 4.</I><BR/><BR/>Great! So you do believe in absolute truths then. <BR/><BR/>Now, I will ask how it is possible for you to know anything, before I give a response. You see, if you can’t know anything, then you have no basis for evaluating any response I give, or whether or not I have even given one, and I would just be wasting my time. Also, what is the justification for the universal, abstract, invariant laws of logic you wish to use to evaluate my response?D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-65011101416088254312009-02-25T18:22:00.000-06:002009-02-25T18:22:00.000-06:00You cannot say you are infallibly and inherently s...<I>You cannot say you are infallibly and inherently sure if 2+2=4 even.</I><BR/><BR/>Wrong. Not just wrong, but fractally and stupidly wrong.<BR/><BR/>Watch me: 2+2=4. It definitely and absolutely is 4.<BR/><BR/>I think what you're complaining about is, if you ask WHY does 2+2=4, then you don't necessarily get a satisfying answer. So what? We work with things that are evidently true without knowing the reason for them all the time.<BR/><BR/>Why are you reading this book? I want to. Why do you want to? I don't know, I just do.<BR/><BR/>You do this too, you just pretend you don't. When I ask "Why does God exist?" you dodge and weave around the question, because your actual answer is "I have no idea." Yet that doesn't prevent you from asserting your god exists, even though you have no reason to believe it does.<BR/><BR/>So, you see? Nothing prevents me from pointing out something that is clearly true, whether I know WHY it's true or not.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-23798558051999174062009-02-25T16:34:00.000-06:002009-02-25T16:34:00.000-06:00Sorry you absolutely correct it is Kazim please ex...Sorry you absolutely correct it is Kazim please excuse my mistake.<BR/><BR/>Now splarrowblawk,<BR/><BR/><I>Dan, because I know from reading your blog and other comments you've left that you aren't interested in engaging anyone here on any kind of honest level.</I><BR/><BR/>Boo hoo. Are you certain of this? How can you be certain of anything with your worldview?<BR/><BR/>If someone rejects Christianity they will end up, if they're honest and consistent, at the bottom with radical skepticism. All bets are off and all up for grabs. Completely arbitrary moral system; it's going to be pick and choose. People don't live like that though, we go to school and turn in papers on time so you can get the grade. With the Atheistic worldview, school doesn't matter; grades don't matter; education doesn't matter; nothing matters with that worldview. It could all be a mirage or an illusion even, it could all be a waste of time.<BR/><BR/>Along with that, there is no answer for origins of life. If fact, they don't know if they themselves even exist. It's a sad worldview when you don't even know if you yourself exists. <BR/><BR/>You cannot say you are infallibly and inherently sure if 2+2=4 even. <BR/><BR/>If atheism is true then Christianity is pretty ridiculous I will admit to that but again, if you're honest, you have no way of knowing that for sure, you have no way of knowing anything is true.<BR/><BR/> Christianity, on the other hand, is completely compatible with reality, relative to Radical Skepticism.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-23583678602683123942009-02-25T14:32:00.000-06:002009-02-25T14:32:00.000-06:00Kazmin, who is Kazmin?Anyway, here's the real prob...Kazmin, who is Kazmin?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, here's the real problem, Dan. You're imagining a situation in which there are two answers to this question of "accounting" for logical absolutes: recognizing that they are there but not knowing "where" they came from, and saying that they were created by "God". You assume that since our "world view" (misnomer) can't account for them, that yours wins by default. But honestly, how does saying "God did it" really "account" for them any better than just saying "Dunno"? It doesn't. It makes you feel comfortable since you've picked something--you've picked AN explanation, but it isn't an explanation that is any better than "I don't know". It's "I don't know" with a "God" sticker slapped on it. Gonna go ahead and unsubscribe, Dan, because I know from reading your blog and other comments you've left that you aren't interested in engaging anyone here on any kind of honest level. Have fun riling everyone else up and thumbing your nose at them. Whatever helps you sleep at night.Sparrowhawkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16520765821903563677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-87073089866134210632009-02-25T14:25:00.000-06:002009-02-25T14:25:00.000-06:00Kazmin,No, that's not how it works.[snicker]You br...Kazmin,<BR/><BR/><I>No, that's not how it works.</I><BR/><BR/>[snicker]<BR/><BR/><I>You brought up the question specifically because you think that it's proof of your god.</I><BR/><BR/>No, I am very curious how do you account for your logic.<BR/><BR/>I will also ask how it is possible for you to know anything, before I respond with my answer. You see, if you can’t know anything, then you have no basis for evaluating any answer I give, or whether or not I have even given one, and I would just be wasting my time. <BR/><BR/>Also, what is the justification for the universal, abstract, invariant laws of logic you wish to use to evaluate my answers.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-83065231953466571712009-02-25T05:31:00.000-06:002009-02-25T05:31:00.000-06:00Dan,No, that's not how it works. You brought up t...Dan,<BR/><BR/>No, that's not how it works. You brought up the question specifically because you think that it's proof of your god. If our answer is "I have no explanation" and your answer is "I invented a magic man who explains everything" then you've got the burden to show why you don't need to account for the existence of the magic man. Otherwise, the explanation is simply unknown, not proof of your god.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-17649837727846091912009-02-25T00:06:00.000-06:002009-02-25T00:06:00.000-06:00SHawk,Dan, are you asking yourself or us? Because ...SHawk,<BR/><BR/><I>Dan, are you asking yourself or us? Because what you just asked applies to you too. </I><BR/><BR/>I am asking you and yes I understand it applies to me also. Go ahead and answer my question and then I can answer yours.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.com