tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post6258787451591024048..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: God likes you better if you're a white missionaryUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-68393975167502076532008-04-26T17:30:00.000-05:002008-04-26T17:30:00.000-05:00I remember when I said outloud at the age of 5 yrs...I remember when I said outloud at the age of 5 yrs old that my God was colored. Yeah I was once called that {smile}.<BR/><BR/>My church going auntie who truly loved me more than Life itself said, "Don't you ever say that again God will send you to Hell." I'm laughing right now, that repelled right off of me I couldn't buy it even at that young age.<BR/><BR/>I grew up Atheist my bestfriends grew up Christians and we still remain friends.<BR/><BR/>Too me God has been used to tell anyone that is not a white person that we/they aren't as good, we're not as loved.<BR/><BR/>Christianity and organized religion is very abusive - I choose to have no part of it.<BR/><BR/>Love your blog, glad I found it.Miss Vickihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04141212355174975322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-7096897955807649562008-04-20T02:43:00.000-05:002008-04-20T02:43:00.000-05:00"God's decree is the ultimate cause ... God's decr..."God's decree is the ultimate cause ... God's decree is the decree of a perfect, omniscient being. It is the definition of good."<BR/><BR/>In other words, I was right: it's a complete waste of time trying to argue with you on the issue of good, because your ONLY criterion for judging whether something is good is whether it accords to God's mysterious will. Well, since humans can't in any way be "good" in their own right, then, why should it matter to us what God thinks? If we have no standard by which to judge that something is good or not, then how can we judge that going along with God is good, since that concept is supposedly foreign to us, leaving us with no reason to go along with him in the first place? Do you see how you're just equate the two words without adding any further understanding? If, on the other hand, we're to follow God through fear of being punished, then that's just dictatorship. But that's at least consistent with the sycophantic mentality of fundamentalism.Luis Cayetanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05210714337197709016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-51332396294689360352008-04-19T19:02:00.000-05:002008-04-19T19:02:00.000-05:00Rhology: God's decree is the ultimate cause ... Go...Rhology: <B>God's decree is the ultimate cause ... God's decree is the decree of a perfect, omniscient being. It is the definition of good. </B><BR/><BR/>God is the ultimate cause of that 12 year old boy's death, and you think that death is the definition of good? <BR/><BR/>You need a new dictionary.NALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12244370945682162312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-67432186245348433422008-04-19T02:15:00.000-05:002008-04-19T02:15:00.000-05:00"All this emoting over a god that you don't even t..."All this emoting over a god that you don't even think exists?"<BR/><BR/>Ah yes, the pathetic "If atheists don't believe in God, why do they write so much about him?" card. Of course, the answer to this "dilemma" has been stated ad infinitum: the reason we "emote" over God is because of the <I>consequences</I> of religious belief, the way it makes people think and behave as though they're specially privileged by an invisible superhero-guy, the way it makes people slavishly give themselves - even against their better judgement - to something that requires blind faith, and all that entails. Strange how fundamentalists don't pose to themselves the similar question: "If I don't believe in evolution [among other secular "myths"], why do I care so much about it?" No, it's always the evil atheists who are projecting their frustrations and their self-denial onto others, not the know-nothing religionists who think they know more about the universe than the world's leading scientists. <BR/><BR/>This doesn't even rise to the level of idiocy. <BR/><BR/>"In another sense, I already understand a great deal why this plane crash happened and why some died and some didn't."<BR/><BR/>No, you PRETEND to know. There's an enormous difference. Of course, your world-view gives you no tools whatsoever for distinguishing between the two, because they have become so hybridised that they are no longer seen as even <I>being</I> different. <BR/><BR/>"And Martin,<BR/>We've seen over and over again the failure of your moral compass to point ANYwhere, so I don't really get where you have the ability to lecture anyone on moral compasses."<BR/><BR/>As Christopher Hitchens has said: religion attacks us from the very outset in our deepest integrity, by saying to us that we're basically just worthless pieces of shit who deserve to die because of our dirty, sinful nature - and yet, in the next breath, it tells us "But wait! There's good news after all". If you make yourself a slave to the celestial dictator, you can live in his company for the rest of eternity. At heart lies a desire to be a serf, to have others tell you what to think and how to behave. This is why religious morality is fake morality: it is COMPLETELY dependent upon the whim of a dictator, who is worshipped even to the negation of our own worth (it's the fundie who thinks humans have no worth, by the way, not typically atheists). Atheists are free to come to a human-centric notion of morality that benefits human beings for their own sake, with none of the slavish bullshit that passes for "ethics" in the drawling, vicious hate-speech that emanates from fundamentalist propaganda mills. The fundamentalist, when espousing his view that without God, humans are nothing and that humans need a surveillance camera in the sky to behave nicely towards one another, is merely espousing his utter, total contempt for the human race, and perhaps his inner hatred of himself. There's something obscene about this way of thinking, the way it reduces people to mere pawns in a great "plan". The hypocrisy doesn't stop there, for we also find that the fundamentalist has bestowed upon himself - surprise surprise - the title of God's spokesperson. Suddenly, his self-hating ravings are to be "respected", because he is not really speaking his own (self-confessedly insignificant) mind, but rather is acting as an agent of the only thing in existence that isn't a piece of filth in the fundamentalists' warped vision: the dictator himself. Even while the fundie claims that humans are "limited in their world-view" and are incapable of formulating a viable ethics for themselves (ignoring the example of Scandinavia), the fundie himself is, somehow, at the same time smart enough to know what this extra-dimensional, infinite, inconceivable being actually wants.Instead of a drawling nit-wit, the fundie is now to be seen as a moral professor, espousing great "troofs". He then places himself on a rhetorical podium upon which to pontificate to others what the truth is. No sooner does the entire edifice of religious apologetics collapse in a tangle of contradiction, than it is resurrected in an orgy of self-promotion and fake "insights" provided by people claiming to have special knowledge because they have read a Bronze Age text written by nomad mystics. <BR/><BR/>"Of course, Rho. Thats because I have a moral compass! Duh!"<BR/><BR/>Exactly. Rhology, on the other, while he does have a moral compass, feels that only through a NON-HUMAN entity can this compass actually mean anything! It's pathetic and contemptible, I know, but that's exactly what he thinks. That anything could ever mean something to us as human beings, with our range of emotions, hopes and fears, our capacity to love and to empathise, and our ability to feel pain and hurt and to understand what it means for others to feel them too, is apparently completely insufficient for Rhology. He wants it to be ordained and made concrete by having Sky-Hitler make it "objective". Such is his disdain for humanity. Humans are only worthy of existence in so far as they are mindless slaves. Heck, Rhology ain't missing out on his chances at getting into heaven on account of some pesky intellectual and moral <I>integrity</I>. That stuff's only for losers who don't want to get with the program. <BR/><BR/>"Or God had a DIFFERENT plan for those who died."<BR/><BR/>Have you ever heard that saying "A theory that explains everything explains nothing"? If something can be bended to account for absolutely anything - if it's so elastic that it can be stretched to provide "explanations" for anything at all that happens and will ever happen, with no criterion for judging when it might be wrong - then it's not an explanation. Religious apologetics is extremely elastic; whenever someone survives, it's because God wants them to continue doing something. If they die, it's because God has "another plan". What is this plan? an atheist might ask. Mysteeeeeeeeeeeerious waaaaaayyyys - stripped of all the scriptural crap - is the standard intelligibility of the response. We're not "meant" to know (conveniently). And who can argue with that? We're pieces of shit, after all. We don't even deserve to live. Religion has all bases covered, then. Any contingency is instantaneously turned into further "proof" for God, and anyone who doesn't like it is a God-hating Osama-loving communist homo-abortionist Muslim Darwinist liberal Evilutionist. I don't know, maybe God is actually a cosmic rubber band? He can be stretched wider than Silvia Saint. <BR/><BR/>On the question of morality: if you DEFINE morality from the outset as what God wants, then NOTHING an atheist can ever say will convince you that they are taking a moral stand. You've shielded yourself from any rebuttal by that definition. So your question is itself worthless, because you don't even acknowledge categories of morality outside your divinely-ordained belief system. Anything outside that belief system will necessarily lack the prerequisite of "God said", so it won't mean a thing to you. it's quite disingenuous of you to even ask the question when you already know that's the case. Of course, this is no reason for anyone to actually fret. I, for example, don't base my morality with a view to justifying it to people who have no real conception of it in the first place. The thing is, though, that fundies want God to be the final arbiter of what counts as moral (because God says so, and, once again, who can argue with that? It says so in the Buy-bull). Why does God want us to act in certain ways and not others? Why does it sadden him that humans kill or rape each other (to the extent that it does sadden him, when he's not actually ordaining these actions)? What is HE basing these things on? Or does he not base them on anything? Or perhaps his morality is based on his intrinsic properties or self (that's when he's allowed to have properties). But God is "unknowable" and he works in "mysterious ways". So in other words, you have NO IDEA what you're actually basing your ethics on, except that it goes by the name of "God". This is beyond laughable; it's utterly deranged. Completely backwards and demented. <BR/><BR/>"B/c that boy had the potential to be a blessing to many and now that blessing is lost."<BR/><BR/>But hang on, I though that people deserved to die from all their sinning? What does it mean "to be a blessing"? To serve God? Why is that "good"? Because it serves God. <BR/><BR/>"As atheists, it's just a step in natural selection. It is meaningless."<BR/><BR/>Well, there's no "ultimate" meaning to death. It's something that happens because of life's contingencies. It obviously means something to us when someone dies, but that doesn't mean that death has any cosmic significance. If a comet were to wipe out the Earth tomorrow, the universe would carry on just fine without us. Only the narcissism of the passionate religionist could imagine that it was all made FOR us. <BR/><BR/>In conclusion, I think that you, Rhology, are either stupid or just disingenuous. You've certainly no more leverage to talk about morality than anyone else (even less, in fact), and your "objective basis" for it is completely superfluous, because you yourself have no idea what that "objective" reality actually is, being a sinful and limited human and all.Luis Cayetanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05210714337197709016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-31734257159033796222008-04-18T16:41:00.000-05:002008-04-18T16:41:00.000-05:00"You haven't made a case that it's WRONG to be a s..."You haven't made a case that it's WRONG to be a sociopath, just that most people dont' choose to be.<BR/>That's your problem - your "morality" can only be descriptive, not PREscriptive. No ought, justis."<BR/><BR/>It's wrong to be sociopathic because WE COLLECTIVELY DECIDE that it is. Sociopaths recklessly hurt people. Often people they don't even know. Do you like to be hurt? Would you like a complete stranger to stab you or shoot you on a whim? Me neither. The idea that you need some kind of supernatural justification for that is ludicrous and hopelessly naive.<BR/> <BR/>If you run into a group of people who would prefer to live in a society where sociopathic behavior is the norm, you're welcome to them.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Fine, but now I'd like to know<BR/>1) whether it's morally right or wrong to desire to get a million dollars, and<BR/>2) how you know that."<BR/><BR/>It all depends on my method of getting the money, and what I'm going to do with it. I mentioned my purposes for the money in the last post. Having a thought in your mind isn't anything unless it leads to real-world consequences, as I said. Other humans will judge my actions. There is no one else.<BR/><BR/>"I don't care about how others will react. I want to know the rightness and wrongness of these questions."<BR/><BR/>You don't care? How my wants and desires inform my actions and then end up affecting other people is the only thing that can possibly matter! How "others will react" is the only way we can possibly decide these issues. You live in a sea of other humans who are affected by your decisions. <BR/><BR/>Again, you're falsely assuming "rightness" and 'wrongness" exist independently of the behavior of human beings, floating out there in the divine ether. It's a phantasm you can't demonstrate, and it's clear what we call morality isn't dependent upon it. Once again, chimps have complex social rules but no god-belief. Where'd that come from?<BR/><BR/>New Guinea natives think it is morally reprehensible to eat eggs because eating the unborn goes against their religion. Is the evilness of egg-eating completely arbitrary? If so, is that because the particular invisible friend that you believe in doesn't think its wrong? Their invisible friend begs to differ. You see the problem you have with God-doesn't-like-that morality. It's a sandcastle because different people have different gods, none of which are demonstrable.<BR/><BR/>You're still on your own. At least be honest about it.<BR/><BR/>"Religion can either codify the beneficial rules you already have and give them more "oomph", or it can do the opposite and tell you to do something destructive because someone is convinced it's divine will.<BR/><BR/>Well, that's just a naked assertion, and I deny it."<BR/><BR/>Deny all you want. I only have to look back to 9-11 to find devout people perfectly willing to kill thousands of strangers because their god wanted them to. The fact that it isn't your particular god in this case doesn't matter. Pretending divine-sanctioned destructive behavior doesn't exist is a wild and laughable stretch, even for you.<BR/><BR/>"Euthyphro Dilemma<BR/><BR/>I don't believe, nor does the Bible teach, the divine-command theory, so the dilemma is inapplicable."<BR/><BR/>Wrong again. The fact that people of your ilk try to weasel around the problem by saying God's will can't contradict God's nature is immaterial. Since you have no answer as to why "God's Nature" is the way it is rather than some other way. The arbitrariness at the heart of the claim doesn't go away.<BR/><BR/>If God's Nature/Will was different than what it supposedly is, would we still call it "good" no matter what?<BR/><BR/>You've simply moved the problem away one step and think you've solved it. You haven't, except perhaps verbally. God's Nature or will, doesn't matter. You're still stuck with "It's just is what it is" in either case.Kingasaurushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08458810855208904790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-67849482535285973682008-04-18T15:56:00.000-05:002008-04-18T15:56:00.000-05:00Kingasaurus,You haven't made a case that it's WRON...Kingasaurus,<BR/><BR/>You haven't made a case that it's WRONG to be a sociopath, just that most people dont' choose to be.<BR/>That's your problem - your "morality" can only be descriptive, not PREscriptive. No ought, just is.<BR/><BR/><I>Let's say I have a desire to get a million dollars</I><BR/><BR/>Fine, but now I'd like to know <BR/>1) whether it's morally right or wrong to desire to get a million dollars, and<BR/>2) how you know that.<BR/><BR/>I'm trying to get to the first step here - telling us how you judge Desire X right or wrong will get us closer.<BR/>I don't care about how others will react. I want to know the rightness and wrongness of these questions.<BR/><BR/><I>Religion can either codify the beneficial rules you already have and give them more "oomph", or it can do the opposite and tell you to do something destructive because someone is convinced it's divine will.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, that's just a naked assertion, and I deny it.<BR/><BR/><I>Euthyphro Dilemma</I><BR/><BR/>I don't believe, nor does the Bible teach, the divine-command theory, so the dilemma is inapplicable.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Tommy,<BR/><BR/>I insulted you? <BR/>Where? <BR/>Is this a lovefest or is this a blog whose virtually every post is an assault on theistic something-or-other? If you don't like it, you're welcome to go somewhere else (<A HREF="http://anexerciseinfutility.blogspot.com/2008/04/friday-funnies-mr-pink.html#c2784289482838660329" REL="nofollow">which I'm cool with</A>, BTW).<BR/><BR/><BR/>NAL,<BR/><BR/>Rather, the death itself is regrettable.<BR/><BR/><I>If you regret the boy's death, and the boy's death is the result of God's plan, wouldn't you also find God's plan regrettable?</I><BR/><BR/>Well, that's a good question, I'll give you that.<BR/>God's decree is the ultimate cause, but the efficient (?) cause is the plane crash. <BR/>God's decree is the decree of a perfect, omniscient being. It is the definition of good. <BR/>The plane crash results in death, which is, like I said, an enemy. Human sin has allowed death into the world, and one day death will be gone. God Himself will redeem His people.<BR/><BR/><I>Deplorable</I><BR/><BR/>We've seen over and over again an atheist's inability to sustain a moral statement like that, and <A HREF="http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/2008/03/i-ijustcanthelpit.html" REL="nofollow">you can't keep your hands out of the cookie jar</A>. It's funny to watch, actually.<BR/><BR/>This may well be my last comment here - we're so far off from the original post and we're getting atheists gushing emotional moralisms all over the place that their worldview can't sustain. My shoes are getting sticky from the gushings, and I don't like that. <BR/>Kingasaurus, I prolly won't respond to your answer to my questions unless it be in another blogpost, but consider this your big opportunity to go where NAL, Martin, and several others have failed to go when questioned. Here's to clear thinking.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/>RhologyRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-86538067252422531492008-04-18T15:30:00.000-05:002008-04-18T15:30:00.000-05:00A synonym for regrettable is deplorable.A synonym for regrettable is deplorable.NALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12244370945682162312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-63405181242221321002008-04-18T14:42:00.000-05:002008-04-18T14:42:00.000-05:00Rhology: B/c that boy had the potential to be a bl...Rhology: <B>B/c that boy had the potential to be a blessing to many and now that blessing is lost.<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>That which was the cause of regret is regrettable. If you regret the boy's death, and the boy's death is the result of God's plan, wouldn't you also find God's plan regrettable?NALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12244370945682162312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-2657948996761082202008-04-18T12:07:00.000-05:002008-04-18T12:07:00.000-05:00Oh, and well said Kingasaurus!Oh, and well said Kingasaurus!Tommykeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751182125861177379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-10548837729167376792008-04-18T12:05:00.000-05:002008-04-18T12:05:00.000-05:00Wow, how Christian of you. I offer the chance to ...Wow, how Christian of you. I offer the chance to engage in a discussion and you insult me for it.<BR/><BR/>Not everything has to be a debate Rhology. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. No debate is going to change that. People who have different points of view can <EM>communicate</EM> with each other without shouting "strawman!", "begging the question!" or "logical fallacy!". But I suppose it is more important for you to gratify your own ego by racking up debate "victories" than to actually just talk to other people.<BR/><BR/>Later dude!<BR/><BR/>TomTommykeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751182125861177379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-29409179550076579602008-04-18T11:59:00.000-05:002008-04-18T11:59:00.000-05:00"Sure, I want to, but history and modern times are..."Sure, I want to, but history and modern times are full of those who don't."<BR/><BR/>There's a small percentage of people who are incapable of empathy, and we call them sociopaths. They're very dangerous to society. We tend to lock them up because they often indiscriminately hurt other people. Again, you'd rather live in a place that took such measures, and so would I.<BR/><BR/>"Next step - morality is not just about judgments on action but of thought. Is it right for me to think/desire X?"<BR/><BR/>Let's say I have a desire to get a million dollars, so that me and my children can live in more comfort and safety than if I didn't have it. If I follow the rules of society and "earn" it, very few people will call it "bad". If I decide to get it the quick and easy way by robbing a bank, my fellow citizens are going to have a small problem with that. <BR/><BR/>The consequences of the desire always color the morality of it. Thoughts by themselves aren't crimes unless they lead to real-world consequences. If I want something that I have no way of getting under any circumstances, I can do two things: Break the rules of the society I live in and take my chances, or leave and try and find another place to live that will let me do what I want. The second option might be completely closed by the way, which means the only other alternative is not acting on my desires at all - as the consequences of doing so would be more negative for me than not doing so.<BR/><BR/>That's what I mean when I say all human societies are experiments in living together. They aren't all identical.<BR/><BR/>"Is it right to want to live in society?<BR/>Why or why not?"<BR/><BR/>The reason why people have "society" at all, is that people derive benefits to themselves by living in groups. We're social animals anyway, so we instinctively do this. Even without instinct, this premise is so obvious it shouldn't need an explanation. Nobody forces you to stay in society. people do it because they're getting something out of it. You are too if your refrigerator's full.<BR/><BR/>If you don't want the benefits of comfort, safety, etc, that you get from society, you are perfectly free to go off into the desert or the jungle completely by yourself. Or take your last dime and have a helicopter drop you off on a deserted island. You can then have the immense pleasure of never having contact with another person, and completely fending for yourself in regards to food, shelter, protection from animals and the whims of mischance. If you get a disease, you're on your own - no doctor.<BR/><BR/>If you want that sort of existence, Knock yourself out. It's not "wrong" for you to want to live completely by yourself. But all the benefits you get from society will disappear. Most people don't want that, and consider the dissipation of societal benefits to be "bad".<BR/><BR/>Get it?<BR/><BR/>Imaginary Cosmic Floating Good never comes into it all. Religion can either codify the beneficial rules you already have and give them more "oomph", or it can do the opposite and tell you to do something destructive because someone is convinced it's divine will.<BR/><BR/>The point is you're pretending your man-made rules come from god, and non-believers simply aren't pretending. I'm not repeating the Euthyphro Dilemma here. It's been talked out. Look it up if you don't know it.Kingasaurushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08458810855208904790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-74643870469849031682008-04-18T11:39:00.000-05:002008-04-18T11:39:00.000-05:00Very funny, Tommy. Yes *I'M* the one turning ever...Very funny, Tommy. Yes *I'M* the one turning everythg into a debate. <BR/>This is a debate blog.<BR/>Blogger is free - go start another blog called atheistsandtheistsholdhandsandhum.blogspot if you're so inclined.<BR/><BR/>And don't feel obligated to justify your statements. This is only for those who believe that their beliefs are defensible and would like to try.<BR/><BR/>More milquetoast?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-58844384155126632052008-04-18T11:34:00.000-05:002008-04-18T11:34:00.000-05:00Is it really too much to ask for a little decency ...<EM>Is it really too much to ask for a little decency towards the survivors of a traumatic plane crash whose young son's leg was broken in the escape?</EM><BR/><BR/>This coming from a guy who not only believes that we are going to suffer torment and agony in the afterlife but will tell us that we deserve it too.<BR/><BR/><EM>I want you to justify your moral statements in view of the fact that you are atheists.</EM><BR/><BR/>No disrespect intended, but none of us are under any obligation to justify anything to you. What makes you so special or important?<BR/><BR/>As for me personally, I would be happy to discuss what I believe and why, if it really matters to you. That is, if you are capable of engaging in discussion rather than debate, as you seem to feel the compulsion to turn everything into the latter.Tommykeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751182125861177379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-31677761464175363802008-04-18T11:13:00.000-05:002008-04-18T11:13:00.000-05:00Because hardly any human being WANTS to live in a ...<I><BR/>Because hardly any human being WANTS to live in a society where his fellow humans don't have empathy towards him. Do you?</I><BR/><BR/>Sure, I want to, but history and modern times are full of those who don't.<BR/><BR/>Now, you've given me one step (which is more than Martin has done, so thanks for that). Next step - morality is not just about judgments on action but of thought. Is it right for me to think/desire X? <BR/><BR/>So, is it right to think that empathy is the basis for moral action? Is it right to want to live in society? <BR/>Why or why not?<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/>RhologyRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-61248872532495627062008-04-18T11:12:00.000-05:002008-04-18T11:12:00.000-05:00As if this makes up for or even interacts with you...As if this makes up for or even interacts with your absolutely thoughtless expression last comment...<BR/><BR/>We who believe the Bible don't base our morality on empathy, but rather on what God has revealed about Himself. Just FYI.<BR/><BR/><I>divine worthiness</I><BR/><BR/>You're so full of it. You're reading into the comments from the family from ONE ARTICLE.<BR/>They gave credit to GOD for saving them, not to their own goodness.<BR/><BR/><I>what basis does a Christian feel regret over the boy's death?</I><BR/><BR/>B/c that boy had the potential to be a blessing to many and now that blessing is lost.<BR/>B/c death is the result of sin and is an enemy. <BR/>As Christians, we can treat death as an enemy, one that has been conquered and will be thrown down someday, perhaps soon.<BR/>As atheists, it's just a step in natural selection. It is meaningless. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/>RhologyRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-75365203791177333982008-04-18T11:09:00.000-05:002008-04-18T11:09:00.000-05:00"*WHY* is acting on the basis of empathy morally c..."*WHY* is acting on the basis of empathy morally commendable (ie, good) and not acting on the basis of empathy not morally commendable (ie, bad)."<BR/><BR/><BR/>For crying out loud.<BR/><BR/>Because hardly any human being WANTS to live in a society where his fellow humans don't have empathy towards him. Do you? An empathic society is a better place in which to live than one that isn't. Do you really need this explained to you?<BR/><BR/>Humans almost universally prefer life to death, pleasure to pain, freedom to slavery, comfort to discomfort, safety to danger. All human societies are experiments on how people can live together and receive benefits from living in groups. Some work better than others. Hermits don't need "morals" because they don't come in contact with or influence other people.<BR/><BR/>The reason society says (for example) murder and theft are "bad" is because nobody in their right mind wants to live in a social construct where such things are permitted. If my neighbor can jump the fence and kill me or steal my property at any time without repercussion, that society won't be a very pleasant place in which to live. It's anarchy. <BR/><BR/>I give up the right to murder my neighbor and steal his stuff freely in exchange for the promise that if he tries to do the same to me, he'll be punished by the group.<BR/>All social animals have rules of behavior, and humans - being the most complex social animal - have the most complex and varied societies. That's why human societies tend to have basic rules in common, and on the margins things vary from place to place. <BR/><BR/>I'll ignore the fact for the moment that religions can tend to hijack things and instruct people to do things that are "bad" (and call it "good") because they think some god wants them to - like sacrificing babies on an altar so the crops will get enough rain this year.<BR/><BR/>None of this requires any supernatural being to instruct us how to behave. The chimps don't need one, and our morals don't require one either. There isn't some cosmic notion of "good" or "bad" floating out in space somewhere against which we measure things. There are only actions and consequences, and the consequences of our actions give them the quality of "goodness" or "badness".<BR/><BR/>This really isn't rocket science.Kingasaurushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08458810855208904790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-53724365450317423792008-04-18T10:51:00.000-05:002008-04-18T10:51:00.000-05:00I have empathy for the 12 year old boy on the grou...I have empathy for the 12 year old boy on the ground who burned to death. I have none for those who claim some special divine worthiness for their survival, and by implication no divine worthiness for those like the 12 year old boy. <BR/><BR/>Do Christians, based on their belief, lack empathy? If one believes that the death of the 12 year old boy was God's plan, and one does not question God's plan, on what basis does a Christian feel regret over the boy's death?NALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12244370945682162312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-77597439307175465952008-04-18T07:19:00.000-05:002008-04-18T07:19:00.000-05:00NAL sneered:But that's not what these assholes sai...NAL sneered:<BR/><I>But that's not what these assholes said or implied. </I><BR/><BR/>Is it really too much to ask for a little decency towards the survivors of a traumatic plane crash whose young son's leg was broken in the escape?<BR/><BR/>Sheesh.<BR/>Martin, where's your empathy now? Mind asking NAL to can it?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-40113852449068346572008-04-18T07:18:00.000-05:002008-04-18T07:18:00.000-05:00Tommy,I want you to answer the why and how questio...Tommy,<BR/><BR/>I want you to answer the why and how questions b/c they're important. I want you to justify your moral statements in view of the fact that you are atheists.<BR/><BR/>Martin,<BR/><BR/>You have empathy, OK. *WHY* is acting on the basis of empathy morally commendable (ie, good) and not acting on the basis of empathy not morally commendable (ie, bad).<BR/><BR/>Heck, any atheist can take a stab at this one. I'd love it.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-91740305637474853712008-04-17T23:19:00.000-05:002008-04-17T23:19:00.000-05:00Rhology: Or God had a DIFFERENT plan for those who...Rhology: <B>Or God had a DIFFERENT plan for those who died.</B><BR/><BR/>But that's not what these assholes said or implied. <BR/><BR/><I>"I think the Lord has a <B>different</B> plan for us, otherwise we wouldn't have survived,"</I><BR/><BR/>That sounds so much better, not as condescending to those who died. It's still a load of superstitious nonsense, but it's more respectful of those who didn't survive.NALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12244370945682162312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-58089278945355805292008-04-17T22:57:00.000-05:002008-04-17T22:57:00.000-05:00Tommy, to the Christian fundamentalist, the questi...Tommy, to the Christian fundamentalist, the question of <I>why</I> is profoundly important, because a major element in their map of the world is the notion that right and wrong are inconceivable, even unintelligible concepts without reference to divine authority. For someone who rejects their religion to be a moral person is a paradox, and so they hammer on the "why," usually in an effort to establish that even unbelievers must, in the end, "borrow" their notions of right and wrong from Christianity, as there can be no secular guidelines for such concepts. Rhology has said as much here and on his blog (though of course he'll accuse me of strawman arguments again), where he's mocked the idea of secular morality as merely based on "personal preferences," which are necessarily shakier than morality rooted in "God's laws." It's silly, but it's how these people think.<BR/><BR/>So yes, he needed to ask me why I think it's wrong to rape a child, because he was hoping to catch me out in an admission, however indirect, that I needed some recourse to "moral absolutes" (ie, "God's laws") to believe it is wrong. I didn't fall for it (as rhetorical traps go, it was clumsy enough that it might as well have been labeled with a neon sign), so naturally he beat a fighting retreat and told me I evaded his question.<BR/><BR/>You get familiar with the rhetorical strategies after a while.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17933545393470431585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-75381336888958603942008-04-17T22:48:00.000-05:002008-04-17T22:48:00.000-05:00I'm still trying to figure out how chimpanzees com...I'm still trying to figure out how chimpanzees come up with their social rules. <BR/><BR/>After all, without The Divine Chimp Lawgiver to come down from the mountain and explain to them exactly how they should behave, I'm wondering how they manage at all. They do things like share food, cooperate in hunting, mutual grooming, and socially punishing chimps who "misbehave".<BR/><BR/>Without the Chimp-God putting his divine stamp on their rules, why don't they have anarchy?<BR/><BR/>Shucks, maybe there is more to human moral structure beyond "Sky-Dad told me not to."<BR/><BR/>But try telling that to someone who is so mentally welded to divine-command theory that any alternatives to it are completely alien.Kingasaurushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08458810855208904790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-6492403335503240972008-04-17T22:23:00.000-05:002008-04-17T22:23:00.000-05:00Rho, why do you need any of us to explain to you w...Rho, <EM>why</EM> do you need any of us to explain to you why we believe that raping a child is wrong?<BR/><BR/>Why isn't it good enough for you that we simply believe it is wrong? You don't have to agree with our reasons, nor do we require you to. It never ceases to baffle me why some people such as yourself seem to care more about the why instead of the what.<BR/><BR/>Put it this way. Say one night you are driving by yourself on an isolated stretch of road and your car breaks down. A short while later, I happen to drive by, see your dilemma, and offer to drive you to the nearest town. During the course of our conversation while I am driving, you find out I am an atheist after quizzing me about whether or not "I have accepted Jesus."<BR/><BR/>Since I have clearly gone out of my way to offer assistance to you, are you really going to care why I helped you? Or will you be sufficiently grateful to think "Well, while it troubles me that he is an atheist, I am glad he at least seems to be a decent person who went out of his way to help me."?Tommykeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751182125861177379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-34034250639356391802008-04-17T21:45:00.000-05:002008-04-17T21:45:00.000-05:00I keep forgetting it's hard to get past your funct...I keep forgetting it's hard to get past your functional illiteracy, Rho. <BR/><BR/>Repeat: I know it's wrong to hurt children because <I>I possess empathy</I>.<BR/><BR/>Here's where I said it the first time, since you couldn't grasp it:<BR/><BR/><I>If "Don't hurt others, especially if they're weak and defenseless, because you sure wouldn't like to be in their shoes" isn't enough for you, then I fail to see what more I can say to help you.</I><BR/><BR/>I'll try more one-syllable words next time. That should help. Maybe some crayon drawings, too.<BR/><BR/>In any case, I can see where "empathy" would not be a sufficient answer for you, as it's not a quality you seem to possess yourself. And before you whine "straw man" again, allow me to quote your passage where you make this clear. Regarding the 36 victims of the plane crash, you wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>God had a different kind of mercy on the others who died. In particular, His mercy was in not destroying them the moment of their first sin, or indeed from birth.</I><BR/><BR/>So whereas we find the loss of these 36 lives tragic, your reaction, as summed up in this passage, is to shrug and declare that the three dozen dead were lucky to have been allowed by God to live past infancy at all, and so their deaths should not only not be met with sympathy but considered yet another act of mercy by God. <BR/><BR/>Now, I think most of us here consider the idea of a randomly smiting God rather grotesque, let alone the idea that such wanton killing should be thought of as just a "different kind of mercy." (I'll try that argument next time I'm pulled over by a cop. "I wasn't speeding, officer, I was simply employing a <I>different kind of slowness.</I>") But you're cool with it, evidently, and I think that calls your basic empathy into question. Hey, I tend to be a stickler for these things. You can blame my dodgy moral compass.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17933545393470431585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-74542838869886781532008-04-17T21:03:00.000-05:002008-04-17T21:03:00.000-05:00For those of you keeping score at home, that was 1...For those of you keeping score at home, that was 1 consummate evasion of a question and 2 blatant strawmen for Martin. Not a bad night's work.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.com