tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post5537225448194217242..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: Why Martyrs?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-61727830252903361952009-09-27T20:15:53.608-05:002009-09-27T20:15:53.608-05:00Your post on dying for a lie was very interesting,...Your post on dying for a lie was very interesting, and I enjoyed listening to you reading it on the show.<br /><br />You presented clear examples demonstrating that people do indeed die for lies. Anyone reading your blog should now concede to the fact that it would be intellectually dishonest to reiterate that premise as a basis for belief in its current form.<br /><br />To move one step closer to addressing the point at the heart at of their claim, I would like to offer one more example that would show how a reasonable person who claims to have witnessed the resurrection could actually believe it to be true with such conviction that they would gladly die for it, without having to invoke abnormal psychology.<br /> <br />The simple matter is that they might believe that the resurrection really happened but be lying about having witnessed it.<br /><br />This phenomena is what makes urban legends so vigorously defended by people that are so convinced that the stories are true, that they lie about the story's source. They change the fact that they heard it from the incredulous joker down the street, to having actually witnessed it themselves, or having heard it on the news, or knowing a person that knows the person who was involved in the incident.<br /><br />What they are doing is trying to lend the story enough authenticity so that you would believe it as strongly as they do. <br /><br />It is therefore easy enough to imagine that in much simpler days, there would be people that believe a story so much that they would claim to be a witness and even die for it.<br /><br />MarcoLaserTrailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10347293228163108774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-90061123767730294822009-09-24T10:13:44.232-05:002009-09-24T10:13:44.232-05:00A thought occurs to me.
If Isreal was a shame bas...A thought occurs to me.<br /><br />If Isreal was a shame based culture like MFF says then that makes it MORE likely than someone would die for a lie they themselves started. It would be a reasonable option to someone in that scenario to die for the lie rather than admit to it, exposing themselves as liars and bringing shame on their family. It would be preferable to die for the lie rather than live with the shame of being a known liar and fake prophet.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78696452870303084962009-09-23T13:08:11.812-05:002009-09-23T13:08:11.812-05:00Sorry for the triple post but I thought of a good ...Sorry for the triple post but I thought of a good example that highlights the issue.<br /><br />I'm taking a class in US Gov. A big focus is how the ideology and culture of US is fundamentally different from the rest of the European nations leading to its unique government and social structure. Now while we lack many important cultural elements as part of our foundation our neighbors have (such as social responsibility and altruism) we have elements such as separation of powers etc. This leads us to live and govern very differently. European cultures would not be having this debate on health care (not that that is good or bad they just don't care about the scope of government on the large) And yet, despite how damn different our culture is from even our closest European cousins...we still have the same basic thought processes. We even find the same or similar drives in Asian allies such as Koreans and Japanese. Culture has a big influence on people, but it is not as influential as MFF thinks. Again out of Samoa was WRONG and bunk.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-9225862717392093322009-09-23T13:01:08.739-05:002009-09-23T13:01:08.739-05:00"I started doing that awhile ago. My reading ..."I started doing that awhile ago. My reading here and other places (yes I have seen him in many other places, including my own blog) has been all the more pleasurable."<br /><br />I honestly find now that replying to him can be rewarding just because what he says is so hilarious sometimes.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-51109902095914482692009-09-23T12:59:41.778-05:002009-09-23T12:59:41.778-05:00"Are you so closed-minded that you cannot con..."Are you so closed-minded that you cannot conceive of any culture different from your own Ing?"<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCELYhYlLtU<br /><br />"Guys admit you're wrong , if I was wrong it should be easy for you to find soome anthropologist who says "Sorry those guys are wrong .Ancient Israel really was an integrity/guilt culture , just like modern America"."<br /><br />It is Halloween season and look at all the strawmen comming out! <br /><br />One: I doubt that ancient Israel jews had a shame/honor system as the model describes. I've seen it more applied to major differences in the east vs west etc. <br /><br />two: no one is saying that. The point was people can and DO die for lies for irrational reasons, ONE motivation is guilt. Tracey used guilt in a colloquial that included both guilt and shame and you are intentional conflating it and making a stupid argument. As I and well, everyone else explained, the guilt vs shame model does not mean that people act insanely and completely different. They have different focuses culturally that press upon them, but research (which I cited before) that humans have the same underlying drives. Will two cultures have different mental imbalances, yes. An American is unlikely to get Paris Syndrome while a Japanese man is likely to. However, key trends in mental health exist throughout all cultures. Schizophrenia, Depression, Paranoia, Obsession, most damn likely have existed throughout human history. But the point was, we know people can for both sane and Insane reasons. Even granting that you would not have had serial confessors (which again, have shown up throughout history: check the history of witch trials) there are still a plethora of scenarios and reasons one would have for dying for a lie. Investment bias is a powerful one that should not be overlooked. For example, despite the inanity of your statement having been pointed out, because you made the statement in a public forum, you're unlikely to retract it and indeed will probably defend that statement even more vigorously now!<br /><br />I love though how MFF is told a) he's wrong, b) WHY he is wrong by multiple people familiar with the field, and yet he still doesn't see how stupid his statements are. If there's anything funnier than someone saying something dumb as all hell it's when they're convinced it's brilliant.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-86452167235651480612009-09-23T10:02:29.226-05:002009-09-23T10:02:29.226-05:00Guilt is an internal reaction to a violation of on...<i>Guilt is an internal reaction to a violation of one's own conscience. It depends on the existence of an individual conscience - something Middle Easterners do not have.</i><br /><br />LOLWUT?! Middle Easterners don't have a conscience? Surely you're just trying to be funny.<br /><br /><i>Shame is an internalization of the moral judgment that comes from outside, from the group. In shame cultures it is the group that has the conscience, not the individual. Thus when a group accuses one of violating its standards, deep shame is the result</i><br /><br />By your definitions, if you broke the rules of your group, you would feel guilt for breaking those rules, AND would also feel shame because of the groups collective moral judgement. Either way, you're feeling guilty.Aardvarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03515210663985590456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-54508757753701584272009-09-23T07:26:33.912-05:002009-09-23T07:26:33.912-05:00Ing said...
FF is great at strawmen! and at not a...Ing said...<br /><br /><i>FF is great at strawmen! and at not actually adressing the points people made at why his statement is so damn stupid. Look, he knows he's full of bullshit, we know it, he's dishonest and a snot. Can't we just ignore him already?</i><br /><br />I started doing that awhile ago. My reading here and other places (yes I have seen him in many other places, including my own blog) has been all the more pleasurable.BeamStalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772110446629492132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-40349378149615823162009-09-23T07:15:12.927-05:002009-09-23T07:15:12.927-05:00To continue on my last comment, I don't see ho...To continue on my last comment, I don't see how MFT can say, seriously, that there is a clear, clean-cut difference between guilt and shame and that said difference has now been accepted by pretty much every anthropologist and historians. Such consensus rarely happen in the various disciplines of humanities, because we do not deal with what can be proven by a plus b. And it is of course difficult to prove that an opinion, feeling or psychological trait was inexistant thousands of years ago. Now we should expect that the distinction between shame and guilt is an undisputed fact? MFT just revolutionised humanities!Guillaumehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12376749604845793465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-61791259331279416642009-09-23T06:42:56.294-05:002009-09-23T06:42:56.294-05:00MFT: Those stories are about SHAME , not guilt as ...MFT: <i>Those stories are about SHAME , not guilt as Rohrbaugh pointed out in my cite.</i><br /><br />You're certainly tying yourself in knots with your subtle distinctions.<br /><a href="http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/shame" rel="nofollow">http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/shame</a><br />"... disesteem, dishonor, disrepute, <b>guilt</b>, humiliation, ignominy, ill repute, infamy..."<br /><br />Ah, so they felt shame but they didn't feel guilt. Next I suppose you will tell me that they suffer from appetite but they never experience hunger.<br /><br />Oh yes, but you <i>did</i> say that there's an important anthropological difference between shame and guilt. Let's check <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt" rel="nofollow">which is which</a>:<br /><i>Guilt is a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realizes or believes - whether justified or not - that he or she has violated a moral standard, and is responsible for that violation. It is closely related to the concept of remorse.</i><br /><br />So Adam and Eve, having eaten the fruit of knowledge, suddenly gained awareness of good and evil, then became ashamed because they were naked. But somehow or other, they did not feel guilt, which means they were unaware of having violated a moral standard. I guess that tree of knowledge had some pretty selective results, eh? Explain how that works?<br /><br />Of course further down it does explain the cultural distinctions you mentioned. But this won't help much either, since "Christianity and Islam inherit most notions of guilt from Judaism, Persian and Roman ideas." I see, so religious guilt comes from Judaism, yet Jews living in Rome apparently hadn't been informed of the concept yet. Or something.<br /><br />I have seen you say nothing to detract from my initial impression that this was the stupidest contribution I have heard to any argument in quite a while.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-39091249419990667032009-09-23T03:11:22.316-05:002009-09-23T03:11:22.316-05:00@MFT-I read your comment, thank you very much, and...@MFT-I read your comment, thank you very much, and if you read mine you would have understood that I did not agree with you at all about the guilt/shame distinction. I am no anthropologist, but I do have some knowledge in history and literature. You take an hypothesis that from what I understand seems valid, but you use it as a if it was a consensus. In any case, cultures are not impenetrable and I find it difficult to believe that individual conscience was inexistent in Jewish culture, even from the get go, but especially at a time when they had closer reports with Romans and Greeks. And even IF shame was so distinct of guilt and it was the leading feeling in that time, that does not mean that early Christians could not exploit it in the same fashion. <br /><br />Oh, and about stories of God-Man going in the underworld and back, they were frequent at the time: Eneus goes to Hell and back, Ulysse goes to Hell and back, Orpheus does the same of course, Herakles goes to Hell to save Theseus who has been imprisoned. Many of those heroes were half-gods, most of them had to a degree or another divine blood. Herakles even got an appotheosis and became a god himself. As for Jesus, that he was all man and all god is the interpretation modern Christians usually take of the various claims of the New Testament. Early Christians considered him sometimes "only" the Messiah, without being God. And of course there were the various heresies (Jesus became God when baptised, he was literally the son of God, hence distinct from his father, etc), some of which survived through time in modern forms. But in any case, there is more similarities than differences between Jesus's story and the various myths surrounding men-gods. Like Perseus and others, Jesus was born from a virgin. Like the aforementioned heroes, he went down to Hell and back, and like many of them was motivated by love. Like Herakles, he became immortal after his death. Shall I go on?Guillaumehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12376749604845793465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-21989055062069078092009-09-23T02:45:19.866-05:002009-09-23T02:45:19.866-05:00Before reading this I decided to see just what exa...Before reading this I decided to see just what exactly I was getting myself into. So I copied and pasted it all into Word. 11 pages. Aw geez.Aardvarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03515210663985590456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-65922682140358423672009-09-23T00:04:03.606-05:002009-09-23T00:04:03.606-05:00@Kazim
Those stories are about SHAME , not guilt a...@Kazim<br />Those stories are about SHAME , not guilt as Rohrbaugh pointed out in my cite.<br /><br />Guys admit you're wrong , if I was wrong it should be easy for you to find soome anthropologist who says "Sorry those guys are wrong .Ancient Israel really was an integrity/guilt culture , just like modern America".MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-40299032724257004682009-09-23T00:00:50.387-05:002009-09-23T00:00:50.387-05:00@Guillaume
Did you read my earlier posts?
I agree ...@Guillaume<br />Did you read my earlier posts?<br />I agree with you that ancient Jews did not have a "individual conscience" (if by that you mean a voice in your head that makes you feel guilty feelings).<br />I said earlier quoting Rohrbaugh<br />"Guilt is an internal reaction to a violation of one's own conscience. It depends on the existence of an INDIVIDUAL CONSCIENCE - something Middle Easterners DO NOT HAVE."<br />Rohrbaugh and Malina say they do have a a kind of collective conscience (remember this is a collectivist society) based on shared understanding of social norms and the like.<br />Making people feel guilty is a tactic of modern evangelists (whatever your opinions of it are). However as the anthropologists cited earlier pint out , such guilty emotions did not exist in ancient times.MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1751176161364378372009-09-22T23:52:56.643-05:002009-09-22T23:52:56.643-05:00@Ing
The fact that there is a difference between h...@Ing<br />The fact that there is a difference between honor/shame cultures and integrity/guilt cultures is not a "hypothesis". It's a verified fact. Things are starting to change now as America and Europe are becoming influential and 3rd world countries are starting to modernize , but until not too long ago rural agrarian societies in places like Asia and the Middle East lived in a similar kind of honor/shame culture (though probably not to the same degree as ancient times).<br /><br />Are you so closed-minded that you cannot conceive of any culture different from your own Ing?MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-51448170906063107312009-09-22T20:36:16.801-05:002009-09-22T20:36:16.801-05:00To be fair the idea of shame vs guilt motivated cu...To be fair the idea of shame vs guilt motivated cultures is a hypothesis with some value in anthroplogy. But Our Mr. Wizard here is misrepresenting the idea, and clearly doesn't actually understand it. The main idea is really whether a culture uses a personal responsibility or an honor system. regardless of that, he is hilariously doing the OPPOSITE of the "I am the universe" fallacy. He's saying NO one in the past was anything at all like we are right now. You know, despite that we're all basically running on the same OS, with different culture(tm) software uploaded.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-90891592665095933182009-09-22T17:21:45.100-05:002009-09-22T17:21:45.100-05:00And that's to say nothing of the stories in th...And that's to say nothing of the stories in the Bible that are <i>built</i> around guilt -- like Adam and Eve becoming ashamed of their nakedness, or Judas killing himself out guilt for betraying Jesus.<br /><br />Sometimes I suspect that MFT is so eager to make a point that he will latch on to any quote that sounds like it will rescue his position, without stopping to think about whether it will make a shred of sense to anyone.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-89741277266702080942009-09-22T15:29:38.775-05:002009-09-22T15:29:38.775-05:00@MFT-What a load of bullshit. Guilt virtually unkn...@MFT-What a load of bullshit. Guilt virtually unknown? I burst out laughing reading this. If the Jews had a conscience then, and I can assume they did, they must have felt guilty sometimes. Heck, the existence of any moral standards makes guilt possible, in any culture. Christianity prospered dwelling on guilty feelings, from a small number of Jews first, then from Romans and Greeks, who knew about it pretty well: they had already built a literature around it.Guillaumehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12376749604845793465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-41139032957771765182009-09-22T13:49:21.948-05:002009-09-22T13:49:21.948-05:00"You must be the sort of guy that thinks anci..."You must be the sort of guy that thinks ancient people drove around in buicks and ate apple pies and things like honor killings , seppuku and taqiyya never happen."<br /><br />And we've never even met. Remarkable!mikespeirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05397674737999065117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-23466150761700787312009-09-22T13:43:53.462-05:002009-09-22T13:43:53.462-05:00Let me know when you write your book refuting all ...<i>Let me know when you write your book refuting all those social anthropologists</i><br /><br />...says the guy whose only source was a secondhand opinion quoted by a religious apologist.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-19724481256377400702009-09-22T12:55:38.488-05:002009-09-22T12:55:38.488-05:00"You must be the sort of guy that thinks anci..."You must be the sort of guy that thinks ancient people drove around in buicks and ate apple pies and things like honor killings , seppuku and taqiyya never happen.<br />The fact that there is a huge difference between honor-shame cultures (like the ancient middle) and integrity-guilt cultures (like America/Europe) is only denid by the ignorant"<br /><br />Oh scarecrow I think I'll miss you most of all!Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-51403587467344031242009-09-22T12:54:40.713-05:002009-09-22T12:54:40.713-05:00"I personally am not embarrassed to present g..."I personally am not embarrassed to present good research from anthropology or history."<br /><br />Why don't you do so then? You do realize that your clout is low do to how you in the past pretended to know things and portrayed horrendous ignorance?Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-79077919004757812852009-09-22T12:04:09.010-05:002009-09-22T12:04:09.010-05:00@Kazim
Let me know when you write your book refuti...@Kazim<br />Let me know when you write your book refuting all those social anthropologists since you apparently think they're so stupid.(And refute all the native informants from other shame cultures who confirm these findings about guilt too. I suppose they are all lying)<br />I personally am not embarrassed to present good research from anthropology or history.MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-65659481095665397962009-09-22T11:42:35.502-05:002009-09-22T11:42:35.502-05:00GUILT WAS VIRTUALLY UNKNOWN. Reading it into ANY b...<i>GUILT WAS VIRTUALLY UNKNOWN. Reading it into ANY biblical text is a serious mistake.</i><br /><br />I'm not sure what to say about this except that it is plainly the stupidest contribution I have heard to any argument in quite a while. I can't believe that MFT is not embarrassed to say it out loud.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324968314168283095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-63848146208734166682009-09-22T11:41:17.125-05:002009-09-22T11:41:17.125-05:00What strawmen Ing?
All I did was say that tracieh&...What strawmen Ing?<br />All I did was say that tracieh's psychoanalysis of the martyrs was false and anachronistic and showed so.MrFreeThinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12778096949945818236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-30385337503597518712009-09-22T09:43:55.021-05:002009-09-22T09:43:55.021-05:00FF is great at strawmen! and at not actually adre...FF is great at strawmen! and at not actually adressing the points people made at why his statement is so damn stupid. Look, he knows he's full of bullshit, we know it, he's dishonest and a snot. Can't we just ignore him already? He does this every time. Comes up and stirs up a shit storm while making bold assertions and general 'science is wrong', 'written accounts of miracles mean they happened, then he disappears to his troll cave. He's not interested in learning, he doesn't listen to what anyone says there's no point in giving him any attention.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.com