tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post5524551390533131208..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: Authentic Supernatural Experience or Fail? You Be the Judge.Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger99125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1862034868710282162011-03-31T17:02:16.983-05:002011-03-31T17:02:16.983-05:00T - The person at the "10 year reunion" ...T - The person at the "10 year reunion" was one of my buddies who was there at the church. It was a passing awkward conversation of about less than a minute. So, you're correct, I had contact with one of three for about a minute at the 10 yr. The other two I hadn't talked with in 25 yrs. Not sure why you use the word "nebulous", they were just dudes I hung out with in high school.RobKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03748143781615848114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-51660772134989224572011-03-19T02:12:14.374-05:002011-03-19T02:12:14.374-05:00I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that he c...I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that he claimed to have discussed the event with somone (a nebulous someone, nebulous as every other detail) at his "10 year reunion", then went on to claim more than once that he hadn't talked to any of these nebulous people in 25 years. <br /><br />The whole thing reeks of bullshite to me.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08898984711400117548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-83201928057574525432011-01-22T23:35:36.573-06:002011-01-22T23:35:36.573-06:00Part 3 of 3 (END):
FALLING DOWN
Conformity rese...Part 3 of 3 (END):<br /><br /><br /><br />FALLING DOWN<br />Conformity research is mountainous. It goes from explaining that we will change our estimations of measurements when surrounded by only 2 or 3 others who give consistent but far different (and incorrect) estimates than we do, to showing that we will act against a standard without even knowing why--such as stand facing the back of an elevator if we enter and all the other passengers are facing the back.<br /><br />Conformity research really became important after WWII, when it became important to try and explain and understand how millions of people, who were seemingly decent folk, could have been converted to willing cogs in a massive torture and murder effort that systematically exterminated millions of their former friends and neighbors. The results of that research were surprising in that it shows it only takes about 3 people to raise the level of one subject's conformity greatly (over 1 or 2 others acting in a particular way or suggesting a particular reality).<br /><br />In addition to conformity via group pressure, authority can influence our willingness to conform--and that research is also well known, so I won't rehash it here. But a man at a pulpit with Pentecostal leanings cannot simply be discounted as an element of no consequence. There is a reason preachers are considered to be leaders and judged as being a person with the upper hand of authority when they behave inappropriately with parishioners. It's treated like a teacher-student or counselor-patient impropriety if a person comes forward saying they were taken advantage of. So, we can't just say here that the fact a preacher was leading the congregation in the evening's activities had no bearing on anything. Perhaps it didn't have bearing--but I'm not willing to hold that assumption, because authority and conformity are demonstrably linked and the event we're discussing is clearly one in the realm of conformity. So the question "was there an authority figure around?" Is a reasonable question to ask, because such a figure could signal greater levels of willingness to conform.<br /><br />Adopting uncommon behavior (Falling Down) in accordance with a group of 3 or more without questioning it, is explained.<br /><br />At the end of it all though, I just can't seem to bring myself to say that people will, without questioning, conform to turning to the back of an elevator, giving clearly wrong measurement estimates, and becoming accomplice to mass genocide and abuse--but "falling down" simply defies explanation. It just honestly seems like someone trying to make a group of people doing mundane things seem far more impressive than it actually is.<br /><br />-END-Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-22855576777837044172011-01-22T23:35:05.053-06:002011-01-22T23:35:05.053-06:00Part 2 of 3 (thought it would only be 2):
EXULTAT...Part 2 of 3 (thought it would only be 2):<br /><br />EXULTATION<br />Interesting estimates about how we get our information when we communicate with other people:<br />http://www.businessballs.com/mehrabiancommunications.htm<br /><br />>7% of message pertaining to feelings and attitudes is in the words that are spoken.<br /><br />>38% of message pertaining to feelings and attitudes is paralinguistic (the way that the words are said).<br /><br />>55% of message pertaining to feelings and attitudes is in facial expression.<br /><br />The reason we are so well tuned to communication with others is that we are a social species. Our survival capacity is increased the better we communicate. And most of our information from others comes to us in the form of what we see, not what is expressed to us in words. We're so amazingly good at picking up feelings from other people by just observing them, that we even have a specific common word for this ability: sympathy.<br /><br />Some people are so sympathetic they will cry at a movie where the events are fictional. Or they can't watch fictional violence, because they're too disturbed by it. But the reality is when social creatures see someone in pain, they feel that pain and it motivates them to want to alleviate the pain of the other person. And for whatever reason, the link above (in the Laughter section) demonstrates that the positive emotions seem to correlate more highly than the negative ones in transference capacity. Positive emotions would include the ones you described in your event--like feelings of exultation, exuberance, excitement, happiness, whatever.<br /><br />So group exultation is explained.<br /><br /><br /><br />Oh, but it felt like something pulling at you, right--like a force from outside yourself.<br /><br />Psychology and Religion, a decent book by Carl Jung I blogged about:<br />http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2008/08/bridging-gap.html<br /><br />Jung explains how the experience of subconscious is like someone or something "else" interacting with the conscious ego. The idea that people would describe something subconsciously generated, like sympathetic emotional reactions, as something acting on them, rather than a consciously motivated or driven event is hardly unusual. It's exactly how it "feels" to the person experiencing it. If we didn't know what dreams are today, via brain mapping, we might still think of them as divine messages from some nether realm.<br /><br />"The Force" is explained.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-59154506272891541052011-01-22T23:33:48.888-06:002011-01-22T23:33:48.888-06:00Part 1 of 2:
I want to add this final summary, ev...Part 1 of 2:<br /><br />I want to add this final summary, even though it seems this thread is dead/dying:<br /><br />ACCOUNTING FOR BIAS<br />First of all the event takes place in a church with a preacher at the helm--who by his words gives away his Pentecostal leanings. This means it would not be too much of a stretch to assume some members of the audience might lean the same way, and that a Pentecostal response from the audience at some point might not be too out of the bounds of a reasonable expectation.<br /><br />The church provides environmental context. Let me explain what I mean by that. When I took anthropology they wanted to impress on us how easy it is to be biased by environmental factors when you're doing field research in a foreign culture. When you're reporting on a culture you're also new to, and living within, keeping objectivity is paramount--but not easy.<br /><br />In one exercise we were asked to read an account of a possession ceremony in Africa written by field researchers. And the following class would include a viewing of video footage shot of the ritual. I read the research notes and was stunned that the research team reported they had witnessed a levitation--a boy of about 12 levitated during the ceremony in a way they could not explain. Clearly this created a lot of anticipation for me, since I was going to see this on video the next class. Imagine my disappointment, then, when by the end of the video, no levitation took place. At no point did the boy's body ever clear the completely loose contact with the floor. And while he did some amazing contorting, I honestly couldn't call what I saw on that video footage "levitating."<br /><br />And yet the mere fact of the environment, the symbols, the cues, the expectations--led a team of field researchers to become so biased that their report was untrustworthy. But this is why it was a good exercise for them to use video--to keep them honest.<br /><br />Religion imagery is loaded with meaning. Even for a nonbeliever, I know what those symbols mean. Raised in religion, I still get freaked out by "The Exorcist"--even though I know it's fiction--because I understand the symbols and what they mean. Some people watch it and are not impacted. I get that. But the fact is, impacted or not, we know "the code"--we understand religious symbols and what they bring to our mental table, both consciously and unconsciously. Just being in a church is sufficient to create an environment of expectation--even of unbelievers.<br /><br />There seem to be three main elements to this "unexplained" event: Laughter, Exultation, and people Falling Down.<br /><br />LAUGHTER<br />Laughter is contagious--but so are most other emotions that come with sounds. And I supplied links to research on this already. But here it is again, just in case:<br /><br />http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/News/2006/News/WTX034943.htm<br /><br />So, group laughter is explained.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-53515601148193772672011-01-19T13:51:20.902-06:002011-01-19T13:51:20.902-06:00"Well, had dinner with the third person I tho..."Well, had dinner with the third person I thought was involved in this and they had no memory of being involved in the experience."<br /><br />Interesting that you naturally assume you were wrong about them being there, instead of another possibility. <br /><br />You seem damn determined to make this an unexplainable even, considering how you're throwing out outliers to your data and dismissing explanations without justification.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-35450306841457797252011-01-19T12:09:12.983-06:002011-01-19T12:09:12.983-06:00>Something science has yet to figure out? Defin...>Something science has yet to figure out? Definite possibility.<br /><br />People already posted links to research on human conformity. So, a crowd acting strangely in near unison is not unexplained.<br /><br />Also, the memory issue that everyone agrees what occurred is not evidence of the recollection being correct. It's evidence that if you discussed this event among yourselves after it happened, your stories were aligned at that point, and 25 years later you still agree to the story you decided on all those years ago. In order for the recollections to be meaningful, they'd have to be statements taken at the time of the event, and the people giving the statements would have to have been separated before they had a chance to discuss it among themselves--influencing one another into potentially making a single cohesive story out of what might have been several variant ones had the statements been taken separately.<br /><br />Other than group conformity--which is a common phenomena--and that the people who even remember it agree on what happened (that you all conformed, if those accounts weren't polluted by group discussions of the event immediately after it occurred)...what is left to 'explain'?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-55269784395808553532011-01-18T10:25:54.534-06:002011-01-18T10:25:54.534-06:00@Rod - One of the guys came through that town a fe...@Rod - One of the guys came through that town a few years back and said the building was empty. Even if I could track down the pastor, I'm guessing his opinion would be heavily biased.RobKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03748143781615848114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-12661538081825188662011-01-17T23:42:44.551-06:002011-01-17T23:42:44.551-06:00You stated that the priest/guy on the podium (Can&...You stated that the priest/guy on the podium (Can't remember what word you used) stated that it was the work of god or something to that effect.<br /><br />Why not politely but rigorously question him?Rod Kellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12385050721938319930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-17278088621094207142011-01-17T18:18:27.915-06:002011-01-17T18:18:27.915-06:00Well, had dinner with the third person I thought w...Well, had dinner with the third person I thought was involved in this and they had no memory of being involved in the experience. They did have the contact info for the last person I was looking for though.<br /><br />Contacted the fourth person, no leading questions other than asking if they remembered a specific church in the town and anything strange happening. This person remembered the church and described having a few experiences of something "sweeping across" accompanied by a feeling of "euphoria". In his description, he said it was almost like you could see it happening, which was similar to mine, probably meaning you could see the effects. His word choice of "sweeping across" denotes a flow and rapidness which was similar to my description. <br /><br />Was this a case of contagious laughter? I don't think so, as I remember feeling the euphoria and then laughing about it. I've also experienced contagious laughter and this just didn't seem like one of those times. <br /><br />Could it have been gas pumped in by the church or a leak of some sort? That's possible, no way to find out at this point.<br /><br />Something science has yet to figure out? Definite possibility. <br /><br />Something we'll never know? Definite possibility.<br /><br />In any event, this sure has been a strange way to reconnect with old friends after 25+ years. If nothing else, I've rekindled some good friendships.RobKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03748143781615848114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78107895640929353362011-01-17T13:25:36.835-06:002011-01-17T13:25:36.835-06:00@rrpostal:
Maybe the problem is with me, but my co...@rrpostal:<br />Maybe the problem is with me, but my conclusion wasn't really that the case was that anecdotal. Even though 25 years have passed, the guy, in my opinion, did enough research and checking so that we can't dismiss it like a tale from the Grimm brothers. And on the other hand, his case is not the first one regarding these pentecostal churches. But don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that these phenomena have anything to do with anything supernatural.<br />Remember the story of a boy who was sent to the camp? It's not an old post in the blog. There was a part when he joined those Christians who were behaving strange, and he himself experienced pretty strong feelings. It was pointed out by a reader that it was quite reminiscent of Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four.<br />So, what I want to say that it may be true that "There is no way to know" - for this very case. But I'd suggest some research in similar events. As I said, these things aren't gone, just looked over or dismissed as false. But the findings could be interesting.ernobiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13872778498473437876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-47703478836010208782011-01-17T11:12:05.805-06:002011-01-17T11:12:05.805-06:00@ernobious- you seem to think everyone just dismis...@ernobious- you seem to think everyone just dismisses this event out of hand with nary a thought. I think most responses are pretty open minded. I think it, most likely, was a fairly pedestrian event. But I admit it could be the only time ever that this happened and it was a unique and amazingly interesting event the likes of which we should research and study. But I have no way of doing this with an old, singular anecdote. I don't know if it's a "laughing disease" outbreak or anything else. There is no way to know.rrpostalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336728549010108830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-34731920087270362742011-01-15T22:20:47.350-06:002011-01-15T22:20:47.350-06:00Ing I actually laugh louder and harder when I am a...Ing I actually laugh louder and harder when I am alone watching something funny on TV or listening to a comedy album. I fell a little self conscious laughing too crazy out in public.Houston Freethinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04847992223798795763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-30823076391647023762011-01-15T09:56:58.092-06:002011-01-15T09:56:58.092-06:00@ Ing: I did check out the dancing mania. Amazing....@ Ing: I did check out the dancing mania. Amazing...<br />I find it sad that not many commenters took the time to do a little research, or at least think about it. They just claimed that the idea is stupid and bad in a way that is reminiscent of the religious.<br />I'd say to them: don't claim that the garden is beautiful because it has fairies, but don' stomp on the flowers either. Or in plain words: don't ever be dogmatic.ernobiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13872778498473437876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-74070096971863243402011-01-15T09:21:53.517-06:002011-01-15T09:21:53.517-06:00@Eronbius
I did some research on laughter a while...@Eronbius<br /><br />I did some research on laughter a while ago. It's actually different from what most people imagine.<br /><br />For one thing, it IS largely a social cue/interaction. People are FAR less likely to laugh aloud, even when finding something funny when alone then when they're with a group of people. Anyone who is a fan of MST3K probably has already seen this yourself. The movies (both bad ones and the ones riffed) ARE more enjoyable with a group. This is why comedians send in a 'warm up' act to open for the. Once people start laughing a little it's easier to get them to keep laughing and to escalate the laughter. If I recall they did do an experiment with a comedy act where in the trials they switched who was the head and who was the opener. The guy who was normally an opener but acted as the head in the trial was rated statistically funnier by the audience that say him after the other performer went on than when he started the show himself.<br /><br />Then there's nervous laughter which appears to be a social cue/response request. Someone nervous vocalizes a non-language request for assurance, someone who hears is compelled to join in even if not really awkward or nervous themselves as a social response.<br /><br />So yeah, other people having extreme emotional reactions can be contagious. Combine this with the research that shows that emotionally charged preaching/ranting causes people to down regulate their skeptical minds and lower their mental defenses it's not surprising that Pentecostal preachers are able to induce hysteria in even nominal or non-believers.<br /><br />Lewis Black tells a story about how he saw a cult leader who he and the people he was with swear that the guy started to have a glowing halo light for his head. They're sure it wasn't a divine experience because the guy was a sleazy sex cultist asshole, but the force of his charisma and fervor of his cult was enough to mess with even the nonbelievers. And he might've been using trickery to help things along. <br /><br />For even weirder mass hysteria/mental breaks check out "dancing plagues"Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-18643767020598528482011-01-15T03:28:38.313-06:002011-01-15T03:28:38.313-06:00@ Ing: at last someone who doesn't just say &q...@ Ing: at last someone who doesn't just say "fail" to something strange (which is of course not supernatural). Hopefully someone will soon do a research about things like this. Psychology still has got lots of fields to explore and I can't wait for the results :)ernobiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13872778498473437876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-54005455940913962272011-01-14T23:05:24.782-06:002011-01-14T23:05:24.782-06:00Tanganyiki
That's where the euphoria 'epi...Tanganyiki<br /><br />That's where the euphoria 'epidemic' occurred<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanganyika_laughter_epidemic.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1257912130639328862011-01-14T22:46:55.104-06:002011-01-14T22:46:55.104-06:00On the laughter/euphoria. There was a town in Afr...On the laughter/euphoria. There was a town in Africa (sorry I can't narrow that down more) that was noted in studies of mass hysteria/emotional response because they had bouts of seemingly uncontrollable, extreme to the point of pain/incapacitation and apparently contagious laughter. THey were even able to track the event to what they thought was the patient zero of a school girl. I wish I could remember more of the story, it was on NPR so if you did a search of their archives for 'contagious laughter' or the like maybe you'll find it.Inghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024689390434414829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-68976390196562810842011-01-13T21:18:05.384-06:002011-01-13T21:18:05.384-06:00An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, creator of...An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, creator of the universe made his presence in this church known by making everyone laugh?<br /><br />Well, I'm convinced.<br /><br />Twenty-five year old memories FAIL.Houston Freethinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04847992223798795763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-34406975910711668942011-01-13T20:41:49.152-06:002011-01-13T20:41:49.152-06:00@Rod - Fair enough, I was probably reading too muc...@Rod - Fair enough, I was probably reading too much into it.BloggytheBloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15373977167347907630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-39418324368521395002011-01-13T17:32:25.467-06:002011-01-13T17:32:25.467-06:00He doesn't make the assertion that it was supe...He doesn't make the assertion that it was supernatural. No big surprise to me there.<br /><br />I think he holds a completely valid position. He doesn't know what caused it. He didn't say science *can't* explain it, only that he thinks science has not. Why do so many of you guys read more into what he says than what he does?<br /><br />@RobK<br /><br />The supernatural explanation has no evidence for it. I wouldn't even consider it as a reasonable hypothesis myself since nothing in this world has ever been found to be supernatural and church laughter is probably not going to be the first.<br /><br />If I were you, I'd check out sociological studies or perhaps this gas hypothesis. I agree with you that if multiple people remember it without you prompting exactly what happened, memory issues wouldn't make sense.Rod Kellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12385050721938319930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78551325256447405372011-01-13T10:26:23.461-06:002011-01-13T10:26:23.461-06:00Laughter is contagious... and in a church there ar...Laughter is contagious... and in a church there are likely to be a lot of hysterics anyway. I've been in churches where a person or people were hysterically laughing (usually a moment or two after hysterically crying) and I didn't get a "good feeling" from it... I thought it was creepy as hell. Like I was visiting a hospital for the mentally insane.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993705424814818704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-30700764086105659432011-01-13T07:21:50.490-06:002011-01-13T07:21:50.490-06:00@RobK
My problem with your story is that nothing ...@RobK<br /><br />My problem with your story is that nothing in it seems amazing to me. Essentially it's a bunch of people laughing and feeling "euphoric" under slightly uncommon conditions. Well I feel euphoric whenever I laugh, so that isn't special regardless of which came first. I wish there was more laughter in church and the world in general. I consider laughter good and amazing at all times, but I don't see where this is demonstrably unnatural.<br /><br />The more I think about it, this becomes a story about "a feeling" you had one time, long ago.rrpostalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03336728549010108830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-33704036431608002072011-01-13T06:32:19.436-06:002011-01-13T06:32:19.436-06:00The other folks I contacted after 25 yrs retold my...<i>The other folks I contacted after 25 yrs retold my story in their own words which makes it less likely to be a case of memory fallacy or embellishment. It's possible we're forgetting about an extra stimulus going on in the church as some have suggested. Whatever the cause, I've never had another experience like it again.</i><br /><br />The problem with that is that all these people could have had the same misinterpretation or inadequate information you did. If the mass laughter was an 'act' put on by the church (And it's not unprecedented), you all would have experienced the same thing.JThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08881036419280903737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-35299321648225443862011-01-13T02:08:29.737-06:002011-01-13T02:08:29.737-06:00@RobK - Firstly, we have no way of verifying if wh...@RobK - Firstly, we have no way of verifying if what you're saying is true or not about the story not changing nor about it being accurate any more than you can confirm that my great grandmother only had one arm and painted landscape pictures on dried leaves. <br /><br />But that's really a side issue.<br /><br />If it happened exactly as you mentioned, it's not evidence of the supernatural. Those are the arguments you're ignoring.BloggytheBloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15373977167347907630noreply@blogger.com