tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post5508679937401737665..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: "God Exists" and "The Bible Is True"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-90982979466790684932011-04-22T12:33:38.156-05:002011-04-22T12:33:38.156-05:00I used to argue incessantly with believers, especi...I used to argue incessantly with believers, especially those using the word TRUTH in error. I have over the years come to the point where single sentences are all I care to generate anymore. Like, "That is a lie", or "Absolutely no evidence - you fail". I don't know if this is any help. But that being said, I stand in admiration of the effort that went into this blog and trying to deal with somebody who may be ill equipped to understand reason itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-91932381016755327592011-02-04T05:11:41.604-06:002011-02-04T05:11:41.604-06:00the problem with theists is that they assumed that...the problem with theists is that they assumed that everything within their domain is right.... and everything outside it is wrong.Keithehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07050095379599131468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-72954883966298808262011-02-04T01:52:52.209-06:002011-02-04T01:52:52.209-06:00This is exactly why I have begun to put less and l...This is exactly why I have begun to put less and less effort into my dialogues. You go and you push and you give and you take and then you get to that point where you see the sentence begin with "Well, I just believe" and you know you're done. <br /><br />At that point you either bow out or stick around for a futile exchange that often degrades into ad hominems.magx01https://www.blogger.com/profile/14831638782847911405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-40891519133107892482011-01-28T05:51:36.708-06:002011-01-28T05:51:36.708-06:00@Michael Nam Though it pains me to come to the ...@Michael Nam Though it pains me to come to the aid of someone who refers to others as "mental midgets" without just cause, the skeptic in me has to follow the evidence and inform you that adding a 's or just a ' to proper nouns ending in s are both correct.mikekoz68https://www.blogger.com/profile/02168101511381957884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-76706375576375159382011-01-22T06:40:21.835-06:002011-01-22T06:40:21.835-06:00Woah, we may have finally found our example of a d...Woah, we may have finally found our example of a dick atheist.JThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08881036419280903737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-17660691088637600822011-01-21T23:32:28.268-06:002011-01-21T23:32:28.268-06:00@Peter: It's "Harris'" not "...@Peter: It's "Harris'" not "Harris's" ... don't add an extra 's' when indicating the possessive of a proper noun that ends with 's', especially when attempting to deride someone else as a "fucking mental midget". Learning proper grammar will certainly help you on your way to greater reading comprehension, and I wish you all the best in that endeavor. <br /><br />Which brings me to your question. It's true that some of us became a little derailed in the overall thread, but my first posting that set off the harmless fun was definitely pertinent ... something you would have picked up had you scrolled up slightly higher.Michael Namhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18065001592912169409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-14086481216786500732011-01-21T23:06:43.336-06:002011-01-21T23:06:43.336-06:00What the fuck has dungeons and dragons have to do ...What the fuck has dungeons and dragons have to do with Tracie Harris's blog, you fucking mental midgets?Peter Thomas Collhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03587828004196011700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-36690848602602732672011-01-21T17:52:23.784-06:002011-01-21T17:52:23.784-06:00Dungeons? Dragons? Pshaw.
It's Spawn of Fasha...Dungeons? Dragons? Pshaw.<br /><br />It's Spawn of Fashan or it's nothing.George From NYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06158111795024631345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-69063809864879739432011-01-21T14:13:02.364-06:002011-01-21T14:13:02.364-06:00@Ithonicfury -- oy this is rapidly turning into th...@Ithonicfury -- oy this is rapidly turning into the Thirty Years' War!!!Michael Namhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18065001592912169409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-27034859730623754842011-01-21T11:48:32.186-06:002011-01-21T11:48:32.186-06:00@Michael Nam, Jeremiah
There's no need for a w...@Michael Nam, Jeremiah<br />There's no need for a war, can't you just agree that you're both heretics for not playing Risus?Ithonicfuryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13954473314799411412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-65447016676953490922011-01-21T08:05:23.336-06:002011-01-21T08:05:23.336-06:00@Daemon6
I was thinking more along the lines of b...@Daemon6<br /><br />I was thinking more along the lines of breaking down the common "angry, just want to ignore the moral rules" stereotype. I have no illusion that he will admit defeat any time soon.<br /><br />He jumped in, got way more logical arguments than he was prepared to deal with, and even had to fall back to "I would rather believe and be wrong". That in itself is a certain admission of "defeat". I can't help but think that at some level he must have thought, wow, these people have really thought a lot about this stuff.<br /><br />It is mostly conjecture, but I am glad to have representatives like tracieh chipping away at what the theists like to say atheist positions are with sound arguments. It may not have the gratifying result of instant de-conversion, but doing things like this do make progress.John K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11579041716600940838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-63823604700599299352011-01-21T02:15:32.364-06:002011-01-21T02:15:32.364-06:00God damn, Tracie Harris, it is inspiring to watch ...God damn, Tracie Harris, it is inspiring to watch you do your thing! I said it before, and your post corroborates that contention: "You have an ability to win an argument, and you do so with much intellectual and academic prowess." I can relate to the frustration you experience in debating certain Theists. While my arguments, as compared to your's, may appear to be conducted at the 6th grade level, it, too, bothers me when, in making argument with certain theists, my most salient points often get dismissed as if they had never been advanced. I'm beginning to believe that theists have a special selectivity valve in their inner ears -- comforting auditory stimuli get routed from the ear directly to the brain, and disconcerting auditory messages get valved directly out the opposing ear. Of course, I have no evidence for the actual existence of this valve within the ears of Theists. It just brings me comfort to believe that it exists, and so I will simply continue to believe so!!!Peter Thomas Collhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03587828004196011700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-34907412017635531492011-01-20T22:24:41.130-06:002011-01-20T22:24:41.130-06:00@John K
While I agree that these discussions are h...@John K<br />While I agree that these discussions are helpful I think that your assessment is a little off. I have never had an instance where I argued a theist down, and then had them acknowledge points or express consideration (except for weak theists, but those rarely make the effort to argue). I find it very unlikely that he would return to his safe zone and then admit "defeat".<br /><br />In my experience, the best we can hope for in these circumstances is that the seed of doubt will be placed. Theists have a remarkable ability to rationalize any inconsistency away; even if the method of rationalization flies in the face of facts and reason.Daemon6https://www.blogger.com/profile/06379313038024703056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-69273501696260192122011-01-20T17:55:57.233-06:002011-01-20T17:55:57.233-06:00What i hate about theist arguments, are those that...What i hate about theist arguments, are those that any religion can use to "prove", any gods, just by changing the god name, like:<br /><br />"My god X, created the world, and the evidence its my holy book", or, "My god heal sick people, and this its evidence".<br /><br />Even if you point out, that this argument can be made to any gods, they just says: "no,no,no, my god its true, the others are false".<br /><br />At least Aaron, made clear that he dont have any evidence for it, maybe this is the begining of critical thinking, admiting you dont have any higher grounds for your claims...or not....https://www.blogger.com/profile/05774854360116475084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-57919409047287321212011-01-20T16:47:26.624-06:002011-01-20T16:47:26.624-06:00I love, love, love this post. Tracie, you basicall...I love, love, love this post. Tracie, you basically gave a Bible 101 lesson to a Christian. It is something that never ceases to amaze me: how poorly educated they are about the book they consider holy.Guillaumehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12376749604845793465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-53953757638979760132011-01-20T11:09:45.956-06:002011-01-20T11:09:45.956-06:00@Jeremiah -- You dare invoke Greenwood!? So it is ...@Jeremiah -- You dare invoke Greenwood!? So it is to be Holy War...I call upon all followers of the one true faith, D&D Version 3.0 (not those 3.5 cultists) to condemn you and your blasphemous "THACO"! Roll...for...initiative!Michael Namhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18065001592912169409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-15178179580932957342011-01-20T10:05:43.349-06:002011-01-20T10:05:43.349-06:00Regarding "The" bible, you could also ha...Regarding "The" bible, you could also have hit him with Bart Ehrman's lecture about the problems with copying and translating ancient text.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/user/TruthAboutBible<br /><br />I found it to be a very good presentation and very informative.vallwarriorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621492489181305484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-3473821457158386512011-01-20T07:50:33.338-06:002011-01-20T07:50:33.338-06:00When arguing with the seriously deluded the topic ...When arguing with the seriously deluded the topic of logical fallacies, comes up repeatedly. The rogues over at the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe have posted and defined their list of a top 20. A review might make some of them easier to recognize.<br /><br />http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx<br /><br />I think we may be a little overly optimistic about the effectiveness of a reasoned argument <br />when used to change what is largely an emotional point of view. Reason is only powerful when used on reasonable people.DavidCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567694912132966263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-59928740248046694312011-01-20T07:47:40.023-06:002011-01-20T07:47:40.023-06:00On deeper consideration, I think this kind of corr...On deeper consideration, I think this kind of correspondence is not a waste of time at all. Even if it wasn't posted on the blog, despite Aaron refusing to accept rational discourse or be convinced of anything new by the end of it, this most definitely helped spread the idea that there are atheists out there who have reached their lack of belief through careful examination. Aaron now has an experience with a skeptical atheist, which I expect he will share with other theists, making the propaganda of "atheists just want to ignore morality" etc. a little weaker.<br /><br />Cutting him off at the cut and paste stage was only prudent though. There are only so many hours in the day. Time to just link him to the iron chariots wiki.John K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11579041716600940838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-65328198802792667712011-01-20T00:09:09.257-06:002011-01-20T00:09:09.257-06:00When I called out a theist for plagiarising their ...When I called out a theist for plagiarising their "answer" to my post on a discussion thread - I even replied to the points the other person had (badly) made, just to show that there was nothing to avoid discussing for me - she immediately jumped into projection. She said that she doubted that I was coming up with my posts completely on my own. In other words, they have crippled their conversational decency and honesty to the point that they no longer even expect such discourse from anyone else.<br />As I was talking to several people on that thread, they came up with all sorts of statements to confront me. One was "just shut up" and another was "you also posted at HuffPo a few times, therefore I can make fun of your opinion".<br />If that's the level of discourse "the other side" is comfortable with, I really don't know how to deal with these people. I wish we could just send them all back to elementary school to learn some basic conversation, research and debating skills and ethics.<br />I'd find it a simple thing to shrug it off if my brain didn't keep telling me that one of these people offsets my vote in the next election. Ugh.felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00749925395851545703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78605681098475739882011-01-19T23:27:38.272-06:002011-01-19T23:27:38.272-06:00@Michael
I dispute your blasphemy against D&D...@Michael<br /><br />I dispute your blasphemy against D&D. AD&D 2nd Edition is clearly divinely inspired. I suppose you are going to refer me to "Misquoting Gygax" to try and sway me from my beliefs. So good night to you good sir! May Ed Greenwood have mercy on your soul.Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06977623156609966553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-91241247993688400952011-01-19T23:22:42.412-06:002011-01-19T23:22:42.412-06:00Tracie, when you told Aaron "that if you coul...Tracie, when you told Aaron "that if you couldn’t even recognize your own reasoning was absurd", it reminded me of a couple of things I found online recently, particularly the school of thought known as absurdism.<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism</a><br /><br />In which it says, " 'The Absurd' refers to the conflict between the human tendency to seek inherent meaning in life and the human inability to find any." While I don't agree with everything in the article, I did find some interesting ideas, especially in reference to Jeremiah's post and the term "leap of faith," which apparently evolved from some of Kierkegaard's early works. How someone can recognize "The Absurd" in their actions or beliefs, but then actively ignore it.<br /><br />There is even a simple chart comparing, atheistic existentialism, theistic existentialism, absurdism, and nihilism, where I might possible send the next person I hear say an atheist believes in nothing.<br /><br />I think I am getting off topic a little, but I will leave one last thought. After doing research and taking time to respond to the claims of a theist, only to have them show that they considered nothing, are steadfast in their ideas, and still choose to believe because of faith, I am usually left with the feeling that they are closed minded, stubborn, etc. It makes me wonder what a theist thinks when it is the other way around, and they think they have made a great case. Sorry, just rambling.MAtheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12489281535410681576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-7934294379640271372011-01-19T22:04:04.988-06:002011-01-19T22:04:04.988-06:00Man I hate arguments of Biblical inerrancy...like ...Man I hate arguments of Biblical inerrancy...like some editions of D&D manuals, many of the internal definitions, plots and rules are either outright fabrications or mind-boggling contradictions, and you don't even need to crack open a Bart Ehrman book to figure that one out, though 'Misquoting Jesus' is a fascinating read.Michael Namhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18065001592912169409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-40700415526457146312011-01-19T21:51:54.577-06:002011-01-19T21:51:54.577-06:00Well done! I think deep down it's not even Pa...Well done! I think deep down it's not even Pascal's wager that keeps them in the flock. They just want to be part of the flock. It's a comfort, even if it means believing (or faking a belief in) something insanely unlikely.<br /><br />Sometimes I think the best we can do is back them into that corner of admitting that they believe because they just want to. We do them a favor by rebutting the bullshit and getting them to be honest with themselves.<br /><br />I tried to be a believer, and despite smiling and nodding like the other people in church, in the end I decided I didn't really want to be a fake believer. Fake believers don't get to sleep late on Sunday morning. (Real believers would presumably wake up in a sweat having dreamt about going to hell for missing church)LadyAtheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12132821431322748921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-66698450672935206162011-01-19T20:49:59.747-06:002011-01-19T20:49:59.747-06:00Honest:
I know you're just playing Christian&...Honest:<br /><br />I know you're just playing Christian's advocate, but here would be my replies:<br /><br />>A lot of christian's believe god requires a special exemption(pleading) to the non evidence argument because god is god and there is nothing higher<br /><br />I don't see how this exempts them from demonstrating what they mean by "exist" and "god"? If their god doesn't manifest, how is anyone supposed to know what they're calling god or have a conversation with them about it? It doesn't matter what they think about it. Where are they getting their data? If from a source like "The Bible," the question becomes, how did they determine it the claims in that book correlate to reality if they can't demonstrate a god manifesting in reality? There has to be "something" mapping to "god" or there's literally "nothing" mapping to god. If I can't examine their god, I can't validate their claims (and more importantly--neither can they). They can claim all day that it's higher, lower, wears a white tutu, is bigger than a bread box--it's irrelevant if we have no way to verify the claims.<br /><br />>plus the large amount of believer's serve as an irrevocable testament to his existence so it must be true.<br /><br />Argument from Popularity fallacy. Fail. He'd get to research that as well.<br /><br />>A lot of christian's are "playing to get into heaven" because they live in fear of going to hell. - Pascal's Wager<br /><br />Fortunately, he sent me content to an apologist's page he agreed with (after I told him Pascal was a fail), who explained god doesn't accept pretenders. So, he agreed Pascal failed after he bothered to look it up, but agreed still based on his assumption of an existent god. Ironically, then, Pascal fails even to a theist in this case, once he looks it up.<br /><br />>Faith is the default trump card christian's like to use when in losing arguments with atheist's.<br /><br />Except that it doesn't trump, it fails. It's no different than saying, "Oh yeah? Well, I have gullibility." Faith is just belief. If they say "I have faith even if I can't demonstrate it," they're just saying "I believe it even if I have no reason." The may feel they've trumped someone, but the moment you get the "faith" response extracted from them, you've gotten them to admit they believe for no reason but that they believe. That's not an explanation or justification. It's meaningless. "I believe because I believe." That doesn't actually explain your belief--it's just an assertion that you believe and can't offer any justification. Saying gullibility is a virtue doesn't make their appeal to it any more noble.<br /><br />>there is no objective truth except for god. All other human experiences other then god are subjective truths.<br /><br />Isn't their experience of god filtered through their human experience and understanding? So how can they trust their subjective experience in one case, but not others--especially since there are such a massive amount of conflicting claims from sincere believers?<br /><br />I'd say that nothing is more subjective than asserting attributes about a thing that can't be objectively verified. It's all "you" in that case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com