tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post3067221207221251500..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: Seven Heroes...and press releases.Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-58524717394329856892011-06-27T21:19:00.142-05:002011-06-27T21:19:00.142-05:00@ResCogitans
I don't deny that psychological ...@ResCogitans <br />I don't deny that psychological influences effect people.These influences can be positive or negative.<br />I am saying that these influences do not excuse bad behavior.And they do not cheapen good behavior.<br />I would also ask you to consider that people who volunteer for dangerous professions do so in full knowledge of the risks involved. So they are being brave just by signing up.(before they encounter the influence of the group dynamic they are joining)<br />Its easy to become a bit cynical but when good people give up there lives while trying to aid strangers then they are Hero's in my book.<br />I note that you blogging from Australia.<br />Have a look at some of the citations for these Ozzy winners of the Victoria Cross.And let me know what you think.<br /> http://www.anzacday.org.au/education/medals/vc/austlist.htmltonyDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11473370383814794320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-80934515077741785662011-06-27T17:57:31.709-05:002011-06-27T17:57:31.709-05:00tony, i'll try to explain my position in more ...tony, i'll try to explain my position in more simple terms:<br />humans seem to be prepared to cite psychological influences to excuse mass BAD behaviour such as nazi guards sending jews to their death, and yet not admit the same influences may be at play on mass GOOD behaviour. i was just drawing attention to that fact to explain why i felt the hero-worship in our society may be overdone.ResCogitanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16098462922178341583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-4420669845546247912011-06-27T15:40:56.970-05:002011-06-27T15:40:56.970-05:00@ResCogitans
I strongly disagree with both your l...@ResCogitans <br />I strongly disagree with both your last two posts.<br /><br />When you wrote:-i also dislike this hero-worship of firefighters/soldiers/police. as the stanford prison experiment showed, people will behave congruently with the role in which they are cast. i think the majority of the population would behave heroically in the same situation, in which case is it really heroic?<br /><br />I do not believe in an afterlife i believe that the dead only live on in our memory.<br />I do not understand why anyone would feel the need to say that fire fighters who are killed in the act of bravely trying to help other people. Are not Heroic?<br />You bring up the SPE i think this is not relevant.<br />If these firefighters felt scarred and only pretended to be brave. While they were in the act of doing brave deeds. Then i think that makes them even more worthy of praise.tonyDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11473370383814794320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-83030262510964232332011-06-26T07:56:45.684-05:002011-06-26T07:56:45.684-05:00yes there were many flaws in the SPE, and I used i...yes there were many flaws in the SPE, and I used it simply as a popular psychology example of the point I was making. I could have equally referred to the Millgram experiment, or nazi guards, or a completely obscure psychological attribution theory paper.<br /><br />do you actually disagree with the point made by referring to the SPE: namely that people tend to change their behaviour to be more congruent with behaviours expected of a role they have committed to?ResCogitanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16098462922178341583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-64098685597478154272011-06-23T12:26:42.188-05:002011-06-23T12:26:42.188-05:00ResCogitans: as the stanford prison experiment sho...ResCogitans: <b>as the stanford prison experiment showed,</b><br /><br />You might want to turn some of your religious skepticism toward popular psychology as well. The Stanford Prison Experiment was <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Criticism_of_the_experiment" rel="nofollow">unblinded and uncontrolled</a>, the data taken were subjective and anecdotal, Zimbardo took an active role rather than acting as a neutral observer, the study was small and non-representative (as with many preliminary psych studies, it used students as its subjects), it hasn't been replicated, and in at least one case, the "guard" was actively role-playing a character from the movie "Cool Hand Luke." <a href="http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4102" rel="nofollow">Skeptoid</a> has a decent overview of the problems.<br /><br />The Stanford Prison Experiment is too flawed and limited for people to extrapolate causation of complex situations from it. Anecdotally, we know that people with power are often corrupt, but determining the causal link is more complicated, and cannot be done on the back of one small, biased study.Tom Fosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13796424725228769265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-49157230098836228842011-06-22T15:09:26.561-05:002011-06-22T15:09:26.561-05:00There can not be anything more Heroic than to die ...There can not be anything more Heroic than to die trying to save people.tonyDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11473370383814794320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-19969254427525097652011-06-22T14:07:33.184-05:002011-06-22T14:07:33.184-05:00how many atheists would say they believe in a heav...how many atheists would say they believe in a heaven?<br />it may not be a specifically christian concept but it is certainly a religious one and should be avoided.<br /><br />i also dislike this hero-worship of firefighters/soldiers/police. as the stanford prison experiment showed, people will behave congruently with the role in which they are cast. i think the majority of the population would behave heroically in the same situation, in which case is it really heroic?ResCogitanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16098462922178341583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-18797760346053257362011-06-22T09:58:35.827-05:002011-06-22T09:58:35.827-05:00Just about any reader would prefer Matt's revi...Just about any reader would prefer Matt's revision to the AA's official press release. Great job.<br /><br />While I do think it's good to call attention to things like this street sign, Matt's revision is a clear example of the *right way* to do it, especially when the issue at hand is such a sensitive one for so many people and since atheists have a bad enough image problem as it is.Loshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03552150840148273277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-34219895917115903842011-06-22T09:27:41.938-05:002011-06-22T09:27:41.938-05:00"Seven Heroes Way,” as you suggest, would hav..."Seven Heroes Way,” as you suggest, would have been a more neutral name. And I appreciate your point about picking our battles. I’m a fairly hard core atheist, but if someone says “God bless you” after I sneeze I don’t get in their face about it – it’s not worth it and is likely counter-productive to do so. Nevertheless, I have to argue that naming a PUBLIC street “Seven in Heaven Way” crosses the line. While you points are true – heaven is not a strictly Christian concept and admission is not based on heroism – most people when reading the sign are not going to go through your detailed analysis. They are going to have a quick stimulus-response reaction. The fact is that in the U.S., by virtue of religious demographics, most people are going to assume in knees-jerk fashion that the label refers to the Christian heaven. The fact that it may not be a “factually correct” assumption is beside the point and, in any case, defies the way religious cognition works. It runs not on logic and facts, but on faith and assumption. To allow that shallow perceptual process to be engaged so easily here is the issue.<br /><br />Your second point about atheists being viewed as “reactionary curmudgeons” has some validity. But I think the street name should at least be called attention to, and a piece on an atheist blog is harmless. If American Atheists wanted to sue over the issue, that would be a different thing. But since the wall of separation is being constantly assaulted from the right, I think atheists must remain vigilant and chip away at false perception and assumptions having power in our lives. Religion is a hegemonic force, it is all about power. Give it an inch and it will take a mile.Michael Aubryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00365705852226296096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-31358215430732371012011-06-22T07:54:54.562-05:002011-06-22T07:54:54.562-05:00@Petr Kudláček
I'll admit there is a much bet...@Petr Kudláček <br />I'll admit there is a much better case for 1st amendment violation on the currency/pledge issue than for the vague mention of heaven on a street sign.<br /><br />I was making the analogy more along the lines of how this effects the lives of people. I sincerely doubt there will be many converts or an increase in religious fervor because of a street name. Likewise, taking God of the money is the legally consistent thing to do, but I doubt anyone would de-convert because of it. I just think the AA has much more productive things to spend its time on, and as far as PR is concerned, this press release is more of a step backward than anything else.John K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11579041716600940838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-65674264523955521612011-06-22T07:06:22.125-05:002011-06-22T07:06:22.125-05:00I think Matt's suggestion of "Seven Heroe...I think Matt's suggestion of "Seven Heroes Way" is <b><i>by far</i></b> a much better idea than "Seven in Heaven Street", which strikes me as twee to the point of trivialization and more evocative of some high school party game than a reference to a timeless instance of bravery and self-sacrifice, and as such, is faintly offensive even on a non-religious level.<br /><br />I agree with uncivlengr's sentiments... those folks didn't die for the US Constitution; they died for humanity, as such people anywhere would have been; spurred to action by the realities of the suffering of their fellow human beings, not the goosebumps stirred by the such abstractions as "We, the people..." or similar offerings elsewhere.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-74092633434219545492011-06-22T03:41:15.573-05:002011-06-22T03:41:15.573-05:00I really like what Matt wrote better than the AA o...I really like what Matt wrote better than the AA one. Why not make this a press release of the ACA?KK_Mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14690058757892680494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-391485180472897572011-06-22T01:16:41.693-05:002011-06-22T01:16:41.693-05:00"I believe that the In God We Trust and Under..."I believe that the In God We Trust and Under God mottos pushed through during MacArthurism are a very blatant breaches of the 1st Amendment."<br /><br />MacArthurism?George From NYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06158111795024631345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-32296936482481899322011-06-21T23:50:56.760-05:002011-06-21T23:50:56.760-05:00Something that can be seen as symbolic/poetic/meta...Something that can be seen as symbolic/poetic/metaphorical as "seven in heaven" certainly doesn't seem to be much of a violation of separation of church and state (if at all). While I would prefer a better name for the street, it's a non-issue to me. Unlike "under god" in the pledge and "in god we trust" on our currency (which imply the existence of a single personal god) it doesn't strongly imply a particular religious view. Street names are just arbitrary labels that generally aren't trying to push any particular ideological message.Brother Gilburthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17915128916520198213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-17000272487627828832011-06-21T23:12:12.582-05:002011-06-21T23:12:12.582-05:00In the city where I live a firefighter died while ...In the city where I live a firefighter died while fighting a fire in a church. He was a Christian and it was a Christian institution, and this is FundyVille, U.S.A., but I would like to think he'd have made the same sacrifice willingly to protect any other building, and not because of his religion.<br /><br />The 9/11 attackers believed their actions would earn them a spot in heaven, so this street name is a kiknd of poke in the eye to them. OTOH, it was a secular sacrifice by people doing a secular job protecting a secular institution. If they'd died protecting lives in a brothel or a porn set, would they still be honored in the same way?<br /><br />I think I prefer the heroes way idea, which sounds more suitable for fightin amurkins. "Seven in Heaven" 1) is a hokey rhyme and 2) sounds victimy. In the end I don't like it but not for any religious reason.<br /><br />BTW, I like it that we disagree amongst ourselves because it's a direct contradiction to the theist projection on us as having our own religion. They think we worship Darwin or read The God Delusion as a holy text. The more we demonstrate free thought the more likely they'll actually "get it."LadyAtheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12132821431322748921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-82905433862308651032011-06-21T20:15:52.658-05:002011-06-21T20:15:52.658-05:00Wasn't there a similarly garbled press release...Wasn't there a similarly garbled press release by CFI awhile back that caught some flack in the atheist blogosphere and podcast-o-verse...? I remembe them talking about it on Reasonable Doubts awhile back...<br /><br />Agree w/ Matt, there's a difference between taking a confrontational approach and "shooting from the hip" without aiming...making noise rather than a coherent point... this press release was ill-considered and lazy...and we can do better and should do better.JJRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03373297787542059116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-17266088919528268162011-06-21T20:10:03.171-05:002011-06-21T20:10:03.171-05:00I'm voting for Matt D. as next President of Am...I'm voting for Matt D. as next President of American Atheists...or at least as Communications Director! :-)JJRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03373297787542059116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1264446849536704222011-06-21T19:01:09.109-05:002011-06-21T19:01:09.109-05:00Tin-earred and ham-fisted as anything I'd expe...Tin-earred and ham-fisted as anything I'd expect from AA.Mark Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12082856602483276803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-34839530533246412302011-06-21T17:39:51.850-05:002011-06-21T17:39:51.850-05:00@John K. I disagree. I believe that the In God We ...@John K. I disagree. I believe that the In God We Trust and Under God mottos pushed through during MacArthurism are a very blatant breaches of the 1st Amendment. Heck they were openly meant to be religious from the very start as a symbol against communism (something that the Conservative Supreme Court fails to recognize).<br />Admittedly it's not that big of a deal as the battle over science classes and other breaches of secularism but I don't see it as being comparable to this case.Petr Kudláčekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13815604888905970321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-39136915126168684642011-06-21T17:27:21.207-05:002011-06-21T17:27:21.207-05:00Well said, Matt. I agree completely. "Seven i...Well said, Matt. I agree completely. "Seven in Heaven" is just a figure of speech and doesn't have anything to with promoting religion, let alone Christianity. Picking this battle is just throwing stones and screaming loudly with little attention to any long-term goals. AA needs to envision what their end-goal is and ask if this lawsuit is going to bring them closer to that goal, or make it even harder to reach it.Matthew Meyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00845265407152518106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-57896571533953766282011-06-21T16:49:12.681-05:002011-06-21T16:49:12.681-05:00I'd put this issue along with "In God We ...I'd put this issue along with "In God We Trust" on our currency. It may indeed be a violation of the first amendment, but there are so many more worthwhile things to go after.<br /><br />And as many have pointed out, the first amendment violation is tenuous at best.<br /><br />This also reeks of a certain hypocrisy, using the memories of the fallen for separation of church and state publicity, because their memories are being used as publicity for an endorsement of heaven.<br /><br />Matt's revision definitely wins in my opinion. I will be surprised if this press release becomes anything more than a PR mistake.John K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11579041716600940838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-80974134627989268112011-06-21T14:13:16.230-05:002011-06-21T14:13:16.230-05:00I agree with Matt's assessment. There's no...I agree with Matt's assessment. There's no way that "the street uses the tragedy of 911 to legitimize Christianity by asserting that Heaven is a real place." If we name a street Valhalla Way, it doesn't assert that Valhalla is real.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02901357012686256557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-73683010260451125052011-06-21T14:05:01.548-05:002011-06-21T14:05:01.548-05:00"[David Mabus has been banned for violating t..."[David Mabus has been banned for violating the comment policy.]<br />6/21/2011 1:55 PM "<br /><br />ROFLCOPTERMatt D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06865398618141711897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-7569581208647005342011-06-21T13:48:50.056-05:002011-06-21T13:48:50.056-05:00I guess I shouldn't judge. I'm a copy edit...I guess I shouldn't judge. I'm a copy editor and I'm paid to see innuendo in everything. But, man, do they ever put up some absurd street signs around here!Michael Namhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18065001592912169409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-41359367516600544072011-06-21T13:34:04.406-05:002011-06-21T13:34:04.406-05:00Michael... the same way I missed it until you said...Michael... the same way I missed it until you said it. Now it's going to be stuck in my head every time. <br /><br />Great point. :)Matt D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06865398618141711897noreply@blogger.com