tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post2961299904930190537..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: What Does Appeal to Pascal's Wager Really Say?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-4629465829936790032010-11-19T17:26:39.968-06:002010-11-19T17:26:39.968-06:00Are there any mental health professionals or progr...Are there any mental health professionals or programs to help ex-Christian new Atheists to overcome their irrational fears about Hell? The "What if I am wrong?" syndrome?Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16477975819437065097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-72200707474310998712010-11-11T19:03:07.155-06:002010-11-11T19:03:07.155-06:00Tracie, thank you. I have copied from--'Nobod...Tracie, thank you. I have copied from--'Nobody should be made'--to the end, so I can read it over. That will probably happen a number of times. It makes sooo much sense. I consider myself an intelligent person who makes decisions based on logic and reason. However, I well understand the concerns of this letter writer. My religious upbringing engrained in me the notion that asking questions is wrong and not believing is somehow the ultimate of deprevity. Well, I definately got over the asking questions thing long ago. So, I suppose in that sense, I would already be in trouble with a being who can't handle his/her/its supporters thinking for themselves. But, the fear of completely accepting atheism with its logic, allowance for intellectual integrity, and respect for mature minds (the opposite of religion) seems so much harder to shake. It is a struggle. I love your last sentence--'After all, what sort of "true" ideology incorporates an avoidance of examination?'Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12165347487205392523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-291395497342221472010-11-09T12:59:43.102-06:002010-11-09T12:59:43.102-06:00Waaaay later...
After mulling (but no actual rese...Waaaay later...<br /><br />After mulling (but no actual research, as that might involve MINutes of something resembling work), I'm thinking it's more likely to be "False Dichotomy"<br /><br />***<br />'K, felt bad about talking without fact backup. Googled "False Dichotomy". That's the one. Also called a false dilemma, either or, black or white, the missing middle, etc.VladTheImpalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15995433986482663832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-8766648624385987962010-11-05T04:22:05.134-05:002010-11-05T04:22:05.134-05:00Added a bit later:
Could call it the "Coffe...Added a bit later: <br /><br />Could call it the "Coffee or Tea Fallacy" (what, no Coke, hot chocolate, beer, apple juice...?) <br /><br />Or the "Chocolate or Vanilla Fallacy". (No strawberry, butterscotch ripple, tin roof, chunky monkey, etc.)VladTheImpalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15995433986482663832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-9419062262627013472010-11-05T03:44:43.428-05:002010-11-05T03:44:43.428-05:00@Lukas
I think that'd be the Equivocation Fal...@Lukas<br /><br />I think that'd be the Equivocation Fallacy. You can't equivocate (force a choice) between A & B alone if C, D, E, etc are also options.<br /><br />I like the abduction analogy too. And John K's "Give me $20 or I will use my magic powers to destroy your family."<br /><br />I'm working on a way to point out the futility of "deciding to believe". Something like "I have an IPU named Smedley in my glove compartment. His attributes are x, y and, amazing but true, z! I believe in Smedley & I want you to believe in him too. So if I offer you $10 million to really believe in him for just 1 year... "<br /><br />Beyond the "can I choose to believe in Smedley" you'd also need to ask yourself "do I believe this guy's even GOT $10 mil...and that he'd give it to me". <br /><br />otoh, I'm physically right there making the offer. And we know that money exists. God and his eternal HFP (Happy Fun Place)? Not so much.VladTheImpalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15995433986482663832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-8358250011334929132010-11-01T18:22:31.011-05:002010-11-01T18:22:31.011-05:00Moderately off-topic, but it just came up and a qu...Moderately off-topic, but it just came up and a quick google search didn't help:<br /><br />What is the name of the fallacy of assuming that because there are two possibilities, they must be equally likely; i.e. 50/50?<br /><br />It's come up so often that is must surely have a name.Lukashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01844177654412625852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-35898420629070693072010-10-30T21:41:36.178-05:002010-10-30T21:41:36.178-05:00I have been in several discussions with religious ...I have been in several discussions with religious people that concerned the Pascal's Wager. I guess it's one of those cards that they take out when the discussion is going nowhere for them. <br /><br />and besides, i truly believe personal choice supreme to all other assumptions or values. personal choice is absolute and accurate because it is made by me and nobody else. <br /><br />isn't that actually what free will is? making independent choices whether right or wrong?Clair.Voy.Anthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04456524381033879267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-89496920324744881132010-10-28T17:50:07.856-05:002010-10-28T17:50:07.856-05:00erauqssi said:
"Salvation through faith alon...erauqssi said:<br /><br />"Salvation through faith alone is not true. They held something that I've never seen or heard of in any other denomination, a sort of "salvation through remorse". Basically, to be forgiven for a sin you had to apologize and do so sincerely"<br /><br />My mother's faith thinks the same thing. She is a member of the LDS church. Part of the Mormon faith is believing that to be truly expunged of "sin" not only must you have faith but you must pray to Jesus for forgiveness, then you must apologize for your sin (to Jesus and whoever may have been involved) and be truly remorseful of it. Without going through remorse you have not truly atoned for your sins. Basically, the Mormons think that you must suffer from your sin and through remorse and prayer Jesus will lift your guilt and free you from it, therefore being atoned.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01116721482321481107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-57209472862040334412010-10-27T12:23:05.225-05:002010-10-27T12:23:05.225-05:00I just want to say this: the idea of lasagna made ...I just want to say this: the idea of lasagna made with cottage cheese makes me feel like I'm going to vomit.Jennifer Juniperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13913533558610258500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-81087646020555590592010-10-26T12:59:27.132-05:002010-10-26T12:59:27.132-05:00Tracie, have you ever written a book? Your eloquen...Tracie, have you ever written a book? Your eloquence is astounding. <br /><br />"Any ideology that puts mechanisms in place to impede free and independent inquiry — such as severe and exaggerated mental fear of such investigation, should be viewed very skeptically. After all, what sort of "true" ideology incorporates an avoidance of examination?"<br /><br />I've been struggling to make that point articulately for a while now. Thank you!ericLawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06606543401600415250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-81389743815873188692010-10-25T17:04:13.261-05:002010-10-25T17:04:13.261-05:00And to be fair to Christians and Catholics, Pascal...And to be fair to Christians and Catholics, Pascal never made unanimity. After all, not all Catholics are austere jansenists. I read his Pensées during my first year at university when I was turning into an unbeliever and he pretty much sped up the deconversion process. <br /><br />@isleoflesbos-I think that Pascal's Wager is aimed (and was originally?) at believers who are questioning their faith.Guillaumehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12376749604845793465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-28844716961716964142010-10-25T08:12:43.085-05:002010-10-25T08:12:43.085-05:00Pascal's wager always struck me as a thinly ve...Pascal's wager always struck me as a thinly veiled threat, or emotional terrorism. My analogy has always been:<br /><br />"Give me $20 or I will use my magic powers to destroy your family."<br /><br />"I don't think you have magic powers, so I won't."<br /><br />"But are you really willing to risk your family over $20? What if you are wrong?"<br /><br />Nobody is going to fall for this, and it is a pretty horrible thing to try in any event.<br /><br />It makes sense to protect yourself against unlikely things if the consequences are bad enough (like seat belts). It never makes sense to guard against things you have no evidence for, hence the great UFO abduction example.John K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11579041716600940838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-31086169722412232682010-10-25T07:02:36.802-05:002010-10-25T07:02:36.802-05:00Oh jesus christus on a chariot-driven sidecar, a h...Oh jesus christus on a chariot-driven sidecar, a half hour's writing shot to crap with a "sorry, we're unable to comply with your request". Mods, if you see my former post anywhere, delete this one, ok? Thanks.<br /><br />Tracie:<br /><br />While I really enjoyed your response to the emailer, I think that, at least in certain circumstances, it might have fallen short of its goal.<br /><br />Let's assume, for the sake of brevity, that there are two different types of atheist.<br /><br />1. One who never believed in G/god<br />2. One, like Matt, who believed in G/god with all his heart and brain.<br /><br />While your argument is completely and utterly valid for person number 1, it might not be AS valid for person number 2.<br /><br />To use your example, if you never, not once in your life, believed in alien abduction, then sure, it would be ridiculous to devote even .0000000001 percent of your time to worrying over it.<br /><br />But what if, sometime in your life, and perhaps for a great percentage of that life, you believed in it? What if you actually thought you'd been abducted by aliens, and were AS convinced that you were, THEN, as you are totally unconvinced NOW.<br /><br />Thinking about it that way, I could see the validity of asking the question (if only to oneself in the deepest dark of the night) "What if I'm wrong? Obviously, for over 30 years, I thought I'd been taken by the ZZZZZZZR'TT'TH tribe on Melnor 6 and had probes inserted where no probe was meant to be inserted. I totally and utterly believed in it, and preached my belief to others. I even went so far as to attend Alien Abduction school with the full intent of becoming an Alien Abduction priestess before I realized that, through scientific study, self analysis and all the rest, that I couldn't possibly have been abducted?"<br /><br />I think it's perfectly natural for humans who first follow one life path, and then completely diverge from that path in the opposite direction, to, if even only ONCE, ask themselves "What if the first path I was on was right after all?"<br /><br />Because you say this was addressed to Matt, and because Matt has never been shy talking about his previous beliefs as a Christian, then even if (as is most likely the case) Matt NEVER questions his deconversion, I honestly don't have a hard time thinking that some people who once believed do, in fact, ask themselves "What if I'm wrong?"<br /><br />For me, having never believed in a god or gods, Pascal's Wager is the height of stupidity. But I can easily see some atheists, who once were as impassioned about Christianity as they are now about atheism, might, at one time or another in their lives, come to question "What if I'm wrong?"<br /><br />After all, he/she once believed, and every bit as utterly, as surely, as he/she DISBELIEVES now, so there IS that basis upon which to draw questions.<br /><br />Sueisleoflesboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00835343148605658377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-76006825594718670942010-10-25T05:22:27.444-05:002010-10-25T05:22:27.444-05:00If I ever encountered a woman 2 in real life I thi...If I ever encountered a woman 2 in real life I think I'd fall apart emotionally. To think that there are other guys out there who have no qualms about doing that to their significant other is horrifying. <br /><br />I really dug the analogy, btw.magx01https://www.blogger.com/profile/14831638782847911405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-91312802311712324582010-10-25T01:36:33.211-05:002010-10-25T01:36:33.211-05:00To be perfectly fair, Pascal never intended his wa...To be perfectly fair, Pascal never intended his wager to be taken at face value by nonbelievers, thus raising the suspicion that it was aimed, all along, at believers who are plagued with fear and doubt. In his explanation of the wager, Pascal himself admitted that accepting it wasn't enough and wouldn't bring salvation; it was meant to be an early step in embracing the entire faith.<br /><br />Only those nonbelievers who are profoundly ignorant of the "good news" are open to making an emotional and intellectual investment in the faith. Apologists seem to know this, which is why they never try to present it in the way that Pascal intended. Perhaps they are under the delusion that acceptance of the wager really does lead to genuine faith, down the line. But still, they act like genuine faith is irrelevant, when presenting the argument.<br /><br />To me, the question of why they think that the wager is a good apologetic remains unanswered. The idea that they use arguments that they wouldn't personally find convincing because they are unconsciously projecting their own worries seems incoherent. What makes the most sense is that most Christians who use the wager are merely parroting something that sounded good at first blush without ever carefully considering what it really means. In my experience and reading, many/most Christians are driven by a need to "save" others, such that typically the ends justify the means.<br /><br />I don't doubt, however, that plenty of Christians do use Pascal's wager on themselves for validation and reassurance.Fei Menghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17534941709876911424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-6522385876180488562010-10-25T01:21:14.536-05:002010-10-25T01:21:14.536-05:00@ Jeremiah - that certainly is an interesting pers...@ Jeremiah - that certainly is an interesting perspective.<br /><br />I agree that most fear the permanence of death. That, along with the desire to see our loved ones again, is probably one of the main reasons any idea of an afterlife evolved as a human pattern of thought.Carla Schmidt Hollowayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12947846629735463824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-2864224129100222082010-10-24T23:49:23.023-05:002010-10-24T23:49:23.023-05:00I agree with George from NY. I always thought of t...I agree with George from NY. I always thought of the wager as someone saying to me, an atheist, that I should believe just in case I'm wrong. And I've always thought, how can I force myself to believe in something that to me is <b>unbelievable</b>! And even if I did fake it, was this so called god dumb enough to accept my prayers while I had my fingers crossed behind my back!? What kind of omnimax being is this?Justin B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06430484429517190406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-28460352133905624172010-10-24T22:45:51.073-05:002010-10-24T22:45:51.073-05:00Well, I have never been a believer so this has to ...Well, I have never been a believer so this has to go with a grain of salt, but I am not sure the people that offer Pascal Wager type arguments are really worried about a literal hell so much as they are just fearful of death in general. It is a perfectly natural thing to fear death and I believe that thinking about the permanency of death is the real fear driving pascals, not a fear of hell. IMHO.Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06977623156609966553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-51466611286259733442010-10-24T21:15:25.320-05:002010-10-24T21:15:25.320-05:00That said, Ahab, we should not aver from instillin...That said, Ahab, we should not aver from instilling fear in children, or adults, if warranted. There really are things to fear in this world.<br /><br />Religions err in teaching children to fear OTHER-worldly things, which are by their very nature speculative or imaginary.George From NYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06158111795024631345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78407961485333305862010-10-24T14:25:54.098-05:002010-10-24T14:25:54.098-05:00Good post, good answer. Thank you Tracie.Good post, good answer. Thank you Tracie.ernobiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13872778498473437876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-50481966087637647802010-10-24T10:53:35.757-05:002010-10-24T10:53:35.757-05:00Excellent point Tracie.
For me the fear and the b...Excellent point Tracie.<br /><br />For me the fear and the beleif formed a reinforcement loop. The beleif casued the fear and the fear reinforced the beleif which reinforced the fear.... Breaking out is difficult becasue if the beleif begans to wane, the fear shores it up. If the fear starts to subside, the belief reinforces it. <br /><br />In may case, it was an alternative Christian doctrine that provided the mechanism for breaking the loop. Christian Universalim provided a way to loose the fear of hell. Once the fear reinforcement was gone, I could examine the beleif without fear and saw it for the fantasy it was. <br /><br />AllenKansas Humanisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01411514576013762244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-8954660682894542422010-10-24T09:53:43.065-05:002010-10-24T09:53:43.065-05:00Very insightful commentary. Any belief system that...Very insightful commentary. Any belief system that propagates itself by instilling fear in children has serious problems!Ahabhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14675629709031865432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-35350778578979067082010-10-24T04:10:40.129-05:002010-10-24T04:10:40.129-05:00There is more to Catholicism than guilt, you know....There is more to Catholicism than guilt, you know. We also have better music and costumes.<br /><br />Now, as far as the Wager... this is such a total FAIL that I remain amazed to hear Christians using it. These people are not paying very close attention to their own belief system.<br /><br />In Christianity, belief in God - in Jesus as Christ, specifically - has to be sincere and honest in order to matter at all. God is going to know if you're just hedging your bets. Professing beliefs you don't actually hold is not going to do you one bit of good.<br /><br />God will still know you're an atheist, non-Christian theist or whatever and you're right back at Square One. Now, God might still choose to save you - being God, he has the power of course. But the Wager won't get you one step closer to that desired result.<br /><br />As an atheist I reject the Wager for the various reasons we all know so well. But were I still a believing Christian I would reject it just as adamantly.George From NYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06158111795024631345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-31584433871548850142010-10-24T02:04:50.514-05:002010-10-24T02:04:50.514-05:00While I am still a "Catholic" (an agnost...While I am still a "Catholic" (an agnostic who likes to participate in rituals and likes the poetry of tradition, essentially), the more I see things like this, the more I think that, if I have kids, I probably won't bring them to Church or send them to catechism. I don't want them indoctrinated. I used to think this wasn't indoctrination, but I really think it is now. I don't want my kids to be motivated by fear, and most Christian denominations' beliefs are based in fear: 1. you are a sinner 2. if you aren't saved, you'll go to hell - it's all about fear of punishment. That frankly disgusts me.Carla Schmidt Hollowayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12947846629735463824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-7959550223827620462010-10-24T00:25:55.615-05:002010-10-24T00:25:55.615-05:00I really feel terribly for Woman 2.I really feel terribly for Woman 2.Flora Korkishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01738281840344734676noreply@blogger.com