tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post1888000967027870478..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: SynchronicityUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-38524121576086465592010-09-02T07:53:30.938-05:002010-09-02T07:53:30.938-05:00"Sometimes the brain makes connections betwee..."Sometimes the brain makes connections between things that are seemingly unconnected or only distantly or abstractly related."<br /><br />Did you find out what kind of owls they were, scientific and common? <br /><br /> I was hoping there would be some crazy synchronisity there!<br /><br /> Anyway I was actually looking for an atheist take on the concept of synchronicity (is that a jungian term?)QuinnaginO'finniganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08739773675316609796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-40088747410498619722008-07-15T19:23:00.000-05:002008-07-15T19:23:00.000-05:00“I wonder what Audubon has to gain from lying like...<I>“I wonder what Audubon has to gain from lying like this?”</I><BR/><BR/>If I may play devil's advocate for a moment: suppose Audubon has already decided that ANWR is worth protecting for other reasons. Sheer natural beauty, say. Then drilling is something that should be prevented. And inflating the wildlife numbers is a way of achieving that subgoal.<BR/><BR/><I>Here is where I am supposed to reveal the secret of how to effectively respond to Morton’s Demon. The truth is, though, I’ve got nothing.</I><BR/><BR/>I wonder if (metaphorically) attacking a poorly-defended position would work, if you can find one.<BR/><BR/>I mention this because my SO started questioning religion when she realized that the Egypt she was learning about in school, with the dynasties and pyramids and stuff, was the same Egypt she'd been hearing about in Sunday school, with the ten plagues and the parting of the Red Sea and stuff. There aren't two Egypts, and somehow the stuff she was learning in school and the stuff she was learning in church had to fit together.<BR/><BR/>I don't know how to look for such weak spots. I've never been good at that whole empathy thing. In Glen Morton's case, I gather it was simply the fact that a YEC working as a petroleum geologist works every day with things that contradict his faith, and his demon just couldn't withstand the constant onslaught of reality.<BR/><BR/>Maybe if you could find an internal contradiction, some place where he believes A for rational reasons, and not-A for irrational ones, you could press there.arensbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15251547886605570242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-58016159155107438152008-06-28T01:59:00.000-05:002008-06-28T01:59:00.000-05:00Philly,I think you are right about confirmation bi...Philly,<BR/><BR/>I think you are right about confirmation bias being too weak a term to describe what is going on here. Hitler exploited confirmation bias by making sure that a great number of his underlings actually participated in harming jews, rather than simply having their consent. This bias is also what gives rise to dehumanizing terms for other races by veterans. When soldiers were sent to kill in Vietnam, they justified their actions by assuaging their cognitive dissonance with notions that the vietnamese were subhuman. In light of this, "bias" doesn't seem like a word that describes the danger of using such cognitive shortcuts.jdphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11420651730982970075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78335436803864309222008-06-27T11:50:00.000-05:002008-06-27T11:50:00.000-05:00Thanks for the technical term jdp, but it doesn't ...Thanks for the technical term jdp, but it doesn't seem to convey the magnitude of the problem. "Bias" seems too weak.<BR/><BR/>And thank you, TraciehPhillyChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03355892225956705948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-87393265257212771162008-06-27T09:33:00.000-05:002008-06-27T09:33:00.000-05:00Philly:Just to add I read both the articles you li...Philly:<BR/><BR/>Just to add I read both the articles you linked to. I loved them. Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-4630646355076572932008-06-27T09:30:00.000-05:002008-06-27T09:30:00.000-05:00Tracie,Here is a link:http://www.amazon.com/Social...Tracie,<BR/><BR/>Here is a link:<BR/><BR/>http://www.amazon.com/Social-Animal-Elliot-Aronson/dp/1429203161/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214576933&sr=8-1jdphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11420651730982970075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-60449234437996572302008-06-27T09:28:00.000-05:002008-06-27T09:28:00.000-05:00It's so simple--Audubon and all of the other group...It's so simple--Audubon and all of the other groups fronting for the enviro-islamo-atheo-abortiono-evolutiono-libero-fascist conspiracy to steal and corrupt our precious bodily fluids rely on donations in order to continue their anal probes on unsuspecting Midwesterners, and the best way to guarantee a steady stream of contributions is to tug at the heartstrings of good Christian folk (and don't forget, they also conspired to ram the 16th Amendment through the ratification process illegitimately, so that there would be a tax from which those contributions could be deducted!) Anyone with half a brain can see this as clearly as the love of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Herbert Christ!!!!!!!<BR/><BR/>Now, then, for the sake of Poe's Law (and for all of you with whole brains), I present a sarcastic emoticon :p<BR/><BR/>I'll also note that I'm too much of a perfectionist to add the rampant grammar errors and unnecessary CAPITALIZATION to make the above rant seem serious. Still, I've been hearing about "liberal conspiracies" my whole life. I actually have heard that environmental groups inflate numbers to garner more donations--and that may even be true, but it doesn't mean the environmental problem does not exist. My favorite was the argument that non-profits that accept donations from corporations are therefore beholden to those corporations, and thus cannot oppose those corporations' actions. Not sure I get that. If the corporations don't like it, they can just donate somewhere else (the Wise Use Movement?)<BR/><BR/>Anyway, awesome post. I just felt like ranting.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and uh, Jeebus luvs u <:)cryptic_philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10320352520945263986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-11681336916137761062008-06-27T09:19:00.000-05:002008-06-27T09:19:00.000-05:00jdp:Thanks very much for the pointer. It sounds li...jdp:<BR/><BR/>Thanks very much for the pointer. It sounds like an interesting read.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-40492977895797232662008-06-26T22:42:00.000-05:002008-06-26T22:42:00.000-05:00The psychological term for Morton's Demon is "conf...The psychological term for Morton's Demon is "confirmation bias." Basically, there have been studies that prove that once a person makes a decision or takes a side, their minds tune out evidence to the contrary. A GREAT book that explains this, the studies, and several other tricks of the mind (such as confirmation bias, racism, conspiracy theories) is "The Social Animal" by Eliot Aronson. It was used a textbook for a psych class that I took and I later repurchased it to read it on my own again.jdphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11420651730982970075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-46457927191044646432008-06-26T14:14:00.000-05:002008-06-26T14:14:00.000-05:00I think it's largely symbiotic. Perhaps this kind ...I think it's largely symbiotic. Perhaps this kind of thinking opened the door for religion, but once in, religion has been not just keeping that door propped open, but attempting to blow out the whole wall.PhillyChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03355892225956705948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-7884197643958389632008-06-26T14:08:00.000-05:002008-06-26T14:08:00.000-05:00Just to clarify, there is a huge difference betwee...Just to clarify, there is a huge difference between saying "My team is the best!" because of my affinity for them. And saying it is based on stats, when clearly that stats do not support the claim. It is true my team is "the best" _to me_, and that can be based on something as slight as the fact they represent my hometown. That's a value judgment that is not based on data, nor does it need to be.<BR/><BR/>But when I say, "an oil platform in the Arctic is no different than on in the middle of Texas!" That's just so convoluted that I have trouble believing that the person putting it forward doesn't _see_ the error in that reasoning. If he wants to say, "I'm not convinced the drilling will cause harm," that's a fair statement about his level of confidence in the claim "this drilling will cause harm." But to provide data or an arugment that defies any sort of real sense(?) or valid support--I wasn't kidding that I didn't really know what to think of it.<BR/><BR/>It would be like saying, "My favorite football team is the best because the basketball team from that same town won the finals!"<BR/><BR/>I don't even understand that statement. You know?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-44053063978864597482008-06-26T14:02:00.000-05:002008-06-26T14:02:00.000-05:00Sean:I almost get what you're saying. But even som...Sean:<BR/><BR/>I almost get what you're saying. But even someone who says, "My team is THE BEST!" doesn't deny their win/loss stats. I'm not talking about subjective judgements, but about saying "X is the reason," when there's no support, or saying "X doesn't cause any harm," when it's clear I don't know (or I'm denying data that is available to me). There's a difference between a subjective bias about a subjective judgement, and a subjective bias that results in denial of an objective reality.<BR/><BR/>Ouini makes a good point. Morton's Demon is sort of helped along. And on that level I would say it's true that most people I know are guilty of this much. Most people I know with more liberal perspectives are more inclined to watch Colbert or John Stewart. Our friends often reflect our personal interests and ideologies. To what degree we are OK absorbing contrary data or even seeking it out is flexible, though. The danger is in accepting a conclusion before examining the data. On another blog, I replied to a post where someone wrote that there is ample evidence to believe in god for anyone who wants to believe (put forward with a theist thrust). I retorted that there is ample evidence for any woo-woo idea if I "want" to believe it before I look at the data. The problem is that I'm already on the side of error if I "want to believe" anything, before I examine the data.<BR/><BR/>Philly: "Does religious belief lead to this kind of think or does this kind of thinking allow for religion to continue?"<BR/><BR/>What an excellent question, and something I have no answer for. My general thought is that there is such a mix of both that it's probably impossible to pin it on one or the other. Like "does life imitate art or does art imitate life?" Sometimes life imitates art, and sometimes art imitates life. It's not an either or.<BR/><BR/>I feel like I'm a living example of religion impeding critical thought in a person. I would say I wasn't really able to critically think until somewhere around my late 20s, early 30s, and I attribute my difficulty in doing it to my upbringing that was, to a large degree, influenced by fundamentalist religious thought.<BR/><BR/>I don't doubt that religion can create people who think this way.<BR/><BR/>But there are other things that create this attitude, and I'm not sure to what degree religion becomes attractive to them _because_ it caters to this type of mindset...?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-33320026849921516402008-06-26T12:41:00.000-05:002008-06-26T12:41:00.000-05:00Great dissection of their arguments. I recently co...Great dissection of their arguments. I recently concentrated on the arguments for offshore drilling. First, that the whole things is <A HREF="http://youmademesayit.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-offshore-drilling-is-stupid-plan.html" REL="nofollow">based on faith</A> and then after dealing with criticism, realized there's quite a <A HREF="http://youmademesayit.blogspot.com/2008/06/offshore-drilling-reactions-correlation.html" REL="nofollow">correlation between religiosity and reactions to offshore drilling</A>.<BR/><BR/>I can't help but see the latter in the examples you cite. Yes, you can call it compartmentalizing and yes, you can jokingly say there's a demon that only lets things that jibe with subscribed to beliefs through, but I'd say a lot of that comes from an unquestioning loyalty to authority since those beliefs are coming from assertions from Republican talking heads. Furthermore, the reasoning of blindly accepting a premise and then squeezing reality to reflect that premise, gosh, what does that sound like? Does religious belief lead to this kind of think or does this kind of thinking allow for religion to continue? I'm not sure, but there's a correlation there. <BR/><BR/>I think it's important to see how religion may impact other things, especially something seemingly so far removed from it such as drilling for oil. These kinds of posts are very valuable. Great job!PhillyChiefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03355892225956705948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-21839302506857678822008-06-26T09:14:00.000-05:002008-06-26T09:14:00.000-05:00"I am having trouble understanding how someone cou..."I am having trouble understanding how someone could believe—consciously and thoughtfully believe—many common religious doctrines without those beliefs requiring protection in other areas—most other areas—of their worldviews and minds. Can I ... ?"<BR/><BR/><BR/>I'd say a lot of it has to do with which sources of information one exposes hirself to in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Imagine a person whose data diet only consists of conservative blogs, 'reality' TV, Rush Limbaugh, baptist sermons, Fox News, and perhaps a couple of liberal friends who are too polite to press on subjects of disagreement.<BR/><BR/>How hard does Morton's Demon have to work, now?ouinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15476746377310639286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-51038879771085173232008-06-26T04:17:00.000-05:002008-06-26T04:17:00.000-05:00I think the problem is that we lie to ourselves al...I think the problem is that we lie to ourselves all the time; we have to in order to live out lives. How many sports fans really believe that their team is the best or how many parents really believe their little Mary is cuter than other kids? <BR/><BR/>In some ways it is what makes us human and stops us going insane. How often have you bought something and seen it cheaper next week or a better model comes out shortly after? Time after time we will find some way to justify our purchase in order to nullify any negative feelings. Studies show this quite clearly. <BR/><BR/>Most of the time this cognitive dissonance is fairly harmless, many of the choices we make do not result in immediate or large scale repercussions so we can use a short term gain or exagerate a small gain as a justification. I'm happy to laud my sports team as the best the world has ever seen so I can enjoy the game and celebrate a win but in a rational conversation I'd be forced to accept that they have not won a trophy in 50 years. Could I have bought a better/cheaper car? Most likely yes but it was colour I wanted and available immediately. In both cases I over-ride a more objective rational conclusion in order to live and function.<BR/><BR/>The problem, I think, arises when we use the same mechanism to justify larger issues and then fail to recognise it. Just as a religious believer has to make all sorts of justifications and obfuscations for her beliefs - to fail to do so would result in the world crashing around them - so to do more extreme political believers of any persuassion risk having to accept more and more outlandish claims in order to justify their inital premises ("All Libs bad" in this case). Put this failure together with the power to act and you have a major problem. <BR/><BR/>It take a certain maturity and courage to realise that you are now in a hole SO STOP DIGGING!sean slaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01768973037531247199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-81850208965512781182008-06-25T19:49:00.000-05:002008-06-25T19:49:00.000-05:00WWJD - Where Would Jesus Drill?WWJD - Where Would Jesus Drill?Tommykeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751182125861177379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-12616778909393927662008-06-25T17:19:00.000-05:002008-06-25T17:19:00.000-05:00Great post, I am going to have to think about this...Great post, I am going to have to think about this one. Why do people often hold to beliefs and make decisions based on those beliefs even when those decisions hurt them in the end? Why do they make decisions against their own best interests? Quirk of the human brain I think.Seven Crowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09111421127598885800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-19383385744013115992008-06-25T17:13:00.000-05:002008-06-25T17:13:00.000-05:00Brilliant. Thank you for the excellent post!Brilliant. Thank you for the excellent post!Michael Phoenixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12184777502486763445noreply@blogger.com