tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post116346458234690357..comments2023-09-24T07:53:50.826-05:00Comments on The Atheist Experience™: Christians' moral blind spotUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-34312918576812069752009-11-09T20:32:27.149-06:002009-11-09T20:32:27.149-06:0050 shekels! At ~1.25lbs going for ~$17.50 USD at t...50 shekels! At <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22:28-29" rel="nofollow">~1.25lbs</a> going for <a href="http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html" rel="nofollow">~$17.50 USD</a> at the time of writing, that's only worth $350!D-trainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532618040426391685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-78732519829068062672007-04-08T09:37:00.000-05:002007-04-08T09:37:00.000-05:00Check out this site for more "disturbing old divin...Check out this site for more "disturbing old divine laws":<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://literalbible.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow"> http://literalbible.blogspot.com</A><BR/><BR/>aAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1164969419184459682006-12-01T04:36:00.000-06:002006-12-01T04:36:00.000-06:00Having been raised a Pentacostal (UPC),I have been...Having been raised a Pentacostal (UPC),I have been fighting what was told to me all my life.My father was a preacher so I have found it most difficult to find my inter voice and some peace. The mean and angry God is a hard one to get over.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1164961276789254392006-12-01T02:21:00.000-06:002006-12-01T02:21:00.000-06:00"There is a difference between these two statement..."There is a difference between these two statements:<BR/>"If you do X, I will make you suffer for it" (the 'mafia boss' position)<BR/>and<BR/>"If you do X, you will suffer for it" (the Christian position)"<BR/><BR/>You're correct, there is a difference. However, labeling the second position as "the Christian position" is, in my opinion, buying in to their rationalization and giving up unearned ground.<BR/><BR/>They'd like us to think that the second position is theirs, but it really isn't...<BR/><BR/>In keeping with the analogy, they are messengers for and supporters of the "mafia boss".<BR/><BR/>Sure, the words coming out of their mouth are "if you don't do this, you'll suffer" but they are acting as a proxy - delivering the threat on behalf of their mafia boss/god.<BR/><BR/>They'll claim that they're just a friendly messenger but this is similar to the other common cop out: "I don't say atheists are fools...God does!" It's a rationalization to avoid taking responsibility for the repugnant beliefs they hold.<BR/><BR/>Continuing the analogy, if you have no good reason to believe this mafia boss exists and they can do no more than assert that it's true - aren't they (from the point-of-view of the threatened) the ones who are actually responsible for the threat.<BR/><BR/>Doesn't their belief in the veracity of the threat make them culpable?<BR/><BR/>I've heard Christians use arguments like the one you used - I used similar arguments when I was a Christian. They all fail and it's more important to point out why they fail than toss up our hands and concede that ground to them.<BR/><BR/>One of my favorites was:<BR/><BR/>"You're in the ocean and I'm yelling at you to swim around to the stern where Jesus is waiting to help you out of the water before you drown or are eaten by sharks."<BR/><BR/>It sounds so nice - and it fits the second position you mentioned. However, it's a completely false analogy.<BR/><BR/>In reality, the person in the water sees has no sharks. In fact, no one has ever seen a shark. He doesn't appear to be in any danger of drowning. In fact, there's no proof that anyone has ever drowned or that it's even possible. Drowning and sharks are concepts that had to be explained to the swimmer, by our hero.<BR/><BR/>He has seen no helpful person near the stern and, when he inquires about this Jesus fellow, he's told by our hero that Jesus is a close personal friend of his. He's the one who created the sharks, and made it possible to drown - and he tossed you overboard in order to demonstrate all this.<BR/><BR/>I could continue the story a la "Kissing Hanks Ass" by having the swimmer ask additional questions like "Why are you friends with such an sick and twisted guy?" but this post is already long enough. :)<BR/><BR/>Suffice it to say that while I understand your reaction to potential misrepresentations of Christians positions (and you're right that there are many varieties with many different beliefs) - that's not our problem. It's not my job to add 500 qualifiers to every statement about Christianity. They can clarify their own positions.<BR/><BR/>There are Christians that don't believe in a torturous hell, they simply believe that hell is "away from the presence of God". Fine, then the mafia boss doesn't apply to them. <BR/><BR/>But it DOES apply to other Christians - many of them. And, as we've said many times on both shows, as long as they're all going to point at the same holy book as authoritative, they're part of the problem.Matt D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06865398618141711897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1164870329787192892006-11-30T01:05:00.000-06:002006-11-30T01:05:00.000-06:00Nice to see all the comments in the wake of the CO...Nice to see all the comments in the wake of the COTG inclusion, but I think Prup misunderstands why I think the mafia boss analogy is valid. Prup says the Christian view is similar to this:<BR/><BR/><I>If I have a friend, and told him not to use methamphetamine, or heroin, or to drive drunk, or to have unprotected sex, and told him the possible -- earthly --consequences of doing those things, am I being a mafia boss, threatening him that if he doesn't obey me, bad things will happen to him? Or am I simply saying that 'actions HAVE consequences.' And the consequences of certain actions will condemn you to hell.</I><BR/><BR/>Where this analogy is wrong vis-a-vis Christianity is that, in the case of some well-meaning person warning you about the consequences of drug abuse, it isn't as if drug abuse was perfectly healthy and safe until that person came along and declared there to be ghastly consequences for its use. God's threats of eternal punishment for not accepting Jesus <I>are</I> more similar to the classic mafia protection racket, in that all the damned person has done is simply not accepted the Christian faith. In other words, according to most forms of Christian dogma (I will concede there is much doctrinal hair-splitting between denominations, but that's all academic, really), a person could be guilty of no crimes in particular, and may well be a perfectly morally upstanding citizen, but unless that person accepts the Christian faith, then his soul is doomed to hell for no reason other than that God says this should be so. <BR/><BR/>This is a very different thing from a person who is genuinely doing something harmful -- eg: drug abuse -- and is simply being warned of the consequences by a well-meaning person concerned about their health.<BR/><BR/>There is nothing innately bad about not worshiping Jesus, but according to Christians (particularly those who reject the notion of salvation by works), this alone is enough to warrant eternal hellfire. I see clear similarities to the thriving businessman who's getting along just fine until he's told to pay "protection money" to someone who is in truth the one he actually needs protection from.<BR/><BR/>Finally, you're right, different denominations have differing views on what constitutes hell and what have you, but really, my view is that's their problem. If Christians can't get their storybook straight it's just another sign of the silliness of the whole enterprise. I have often found that even people who consider themselves the most devout Christians will downplay, as you describe it, the parts of the Bible that are morally objectionable, such as Hell. But that doesn't mean John 3:18 and 3:36 aren't in there as clear as day. <BR/><BR/>So if this book is really the inspired Word of God, how to justify pretending the nasty bits aren't really there, or don't really mean what they say they mean? Fundamentalism may be intellectually bankrupt, but at least it's ideologically consistent.<BR/><BR/>Good job playing devil's (angel's?) advocate, Prup, but I hope I've shown how the Christian objections you anticipate are fairly weak.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17933545393470431585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1164740507727703522006-11-28T13:01:00.000-06:002006-11-28T13:01:00.000-06:00And even if we all think Prup is wrong, he may sti...And even if we all think Prup is wrong, he may still be right. Arguing with fundies all the time, he's probably living in a pool of fundie illogic; ie. these guys certainly could believe that the protection racket was there because of the mafia boss's love.<BR/><BR/>The other thing about the brands of Christianity is true, but it's often unavoidable. It's like a game of rock-paper-scissors: You smash the scissors with your rock, but then the Christians claim they're using the paper theology, so you start attacking them with scissors, and they switch to rocks.King Aardvarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02785457928646226831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1164740045938483572006-11-28T12:54:00.000-06:002006-11-28T12:54:00.000-06:00The proper choice would bea) choose God and go to ...The proper choice would be<BR/>a) choose God and go to heaven<BR/>b) choose not God and not go anywhere, ie. just to die when your life ends and that's the end of it.<BR/><BR/>So in that way, we atheists would be getting what we're deserving. Any other punishments would be piling on.King Aardvarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02785457928646226831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1164676075306072462006-11-27T19:07:00.000-06:002006-11-27T19:07:00.000-06:00Nobody's saying Christians are mafia bosses, we're...Nobody's saying Christians are mafia bosses, we're saying God is the mafia boss, and the Christians are making apologies for Him.<BR/><BR/>There is a difference between:<BR/>"If you do X, you will suffer for it"<BR/>and<BR/>"If you do X, you will suffer for it, because the mafia boss will whack you"<BR/><BR/>In one the suffering is because of natural laws, the other is the result of a decision of a conscious agent.<BR/><BR/>The punishment is within God's control, not the preacher's. The preacher is not the mob boss, he's the mob boss's messenger boy. <A HREF="http://espanol.geocities.com/chm_k/padrino6.jpg" REL="nofollow">Tom Hagen</A> probably didn't deal with the horse's head personally, nor would he have necessarily been able to stop that decision from being made. Does that absolve him?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1164649638742946142006-11-27T11:47:00.000-06:002006-11-27T11:47:00.000-06:00I think your entire argument is simply wrong here ...I think your entire argument is simply wrong here prup.<BR/><BR/>'There is a difference between these two statements:<BR/>"If you do X, I will make you suffer for it" (the 'mafia boss' position)<BR/>and<BR/>"If you do X, you will suffer for it" (the Christian position)'<BR/><BR/>This is simply semantics. Both are the same. The person making the choice is made to suffer by another. I see what your saying but it doesn't remove the validity that you really have no choice in either situation.<BR/><BR/> Yet the person saying this is not being a mafia boss. No Christian preacher with the slightest amount of sanity claims that he, himself will send you to hell for your 'transgression,' he simply says this will be the result. (He does not claim to 'control the punishment.)'<BR/><BR/>Your correct that the preacher doesn't say it about himself but rather about his version of God that will be sending you to hell for not believing in him.<BR/><BR/>I do not find works based theology consistent with either the bible or for that matter a solid theological position. On this I think faith based theology is much stronger.<BR/><BR/>'you will not go to hell, but to purgatory, a temporary place of punishment that will end '<BR/><BR/>They are thinking about 'closing' purgatory and may have done so already. Which is idiotic enough in and of itself.<BR/><BR/>' but truly understand you have done wrong, sincerely attempt to avoid the 'sin' in the future and make amends to the extent you are capable if the sin has injured someone else '<BR/><BR/>How can one truly understand you have done wrong say in the case mentioned previously on divorce? It may be 100% the right thing for all involved. So how can you think you've done wrong when you think it was the right decision? I hate to harp on this one but I find Catholics extremely immoral in this area of there theology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1164639802699559962006-11-27T09:03:00.000-06:002006-11-27T09:03:00.000-06:00Prup,I think your wrong in trying to correct the o...Prup,<BR/><BR/>I think your wrong in trying to correct the original analogy. You said:<BR/>'"If I have a friend, and told him not to use methamphetamine, or heroin, or to drive drunk, or to have unprotected sex, and told him the possible -- earthly --consequences of doing those things, am I being a mafia boss, threatening him that if he doesn't obey me, bad things will happen to him? Or am I simply saying that 'actions HAVE consequences.'<BR/><BR/>This doesn't change the analogy even a little. If one has unprotected sex a secondary individual doesn't enter the scene and punish you for it. <BR/><BR/>You haven't defeated the analogy as there really is no 'choice' involved in the theology. There is one option and the other is the end of a gun.<BR/><BR/>There is a difference between consequence and punishment. An action may have an undesirable consequence but punishment involves the action of another towards you.<BR/><BR/>If I use drugs I may hurt myself. If I have unprotected sex I may become pregnant or contract a disease. If I have unprotected sex and you come over and beat me for days on end that is on you.<BR/><BR/>'For Catholics, the essence of mortal sin involves both deliberate intention and deliberate 'defiance of God.' In effect, in committing a mortal sin, you are saying to God "I know you consider this wrong, but f*ck you, God, I'm going to do it anyway'<BR/><BR/>This is rather silly as all humans have liad, stolen and committed a few errors here and there. According to Catholic doctrine a liar and thief are perhaps less 'sinful' than someone who has their marriage collapse and then builds a successful second marriage. The same for pedophile priests who are forgiven.<BR/><BR/>When your concept of what is sin is that messed up you lose all claims to authority.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1164607052753459502006-11-26T23:57:00.000-06:002006-11-26T23:57:00.000-06:00Or am I simply saying that 'actions HAVE consequen...<I> Or am I simply saying that 'actions HAVE consequences.' And the consequences of certain actions will condemn you to hell.</I><BR/><BR/>The mafia boss could say pretty much the same thing.<BR/><BR/>The thing is, the mafia boss controls the punishment. I could warn a friend about heroin, but I do not control it's addictive properties. I could warn him about unprotected sex, but I can't control HIV nor did I create it. God <I>can</I> and <I>did</I>.<BR/><BR/>I realize there is some difference of opinion on salvation between Catholics and Protestants. From what I understand it is a difference between "salvation through grace and maybe works" (Catholic) and "salvation through grace alone" (Protestant). Both require faith, though. So no matter what good works you do in this world, unless you kneel properly to Jesus, it's an eternity of punishment for you.<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't mind if more Christians tried to move Christianity towards a "salvation by works" version. Though it may be increasingly popular with the lay people, I haven't heard any "official" pronouncements by the denominations you listed, nor does it match my own personal experience. (Raised Lutheran.) It would mean mainstream denominations are moving towards Universalism, and also <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_(theology)" REL="nofollow">this page</A> would need some updating.<BR/><BR/>(I was raised Lutheran.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33241741.post-1163542401734008522006-11-14T16:13:00.000-06:002006-11-14T16:13:00.000-06:00Ignoring your cognitive dissonance results in blin...Ignoring your cognitive dissonance results in blind spots. Doug Henning taught me that :) ..or was it Deepak?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com